.357 SIG?
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Mike Spight
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shamster: In theory, the 357 SIG (w/125gr JHP) at 1400fps should have identical figures as the 125gr JHP 357 Magnum. In reality, it's such a new round, recently adopted by 4 state/local agencies and the Secret Service, there's probably not enough emprical data from actual shooting reports to actually confirm it's effectiveness.
www.firearmstactical.com or Evan Marshall's website may have some data on the 357 SIGs fight stopping effectiveness. Bottomline, it's where you put it that counts.
www.firearmstactical.com or Evan Marshall's website may have some data on the 357 SIGs fight stopping effectiveness. Bottomline, it's where you put it that counts.
There is a range of power in any cartridge...
.357 Sig DOES land in that spectrum - but it's at the lower end.
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"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
.357 Sig DOES land in that spectrum - but it's at the lower end.
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"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
Mike Spight
New member
Mykl: Be underwhelmed all you want...like I said, it's where you hit them that counts...not what you hit them with.
Mike
Mike
The .357 SIG is a good round. It is comparable to mid range .357 mag loads, and I read a comparison a few months ago pitting a Glock against a Smith. The Glock/SIG came out on top. If I can find the magazine I will try to post the findings.
The one main drawback of the .357 SIG is that there are not alot of loads available for it. That is starting to change though as the round is becoming more popular. Being adopted by State local and Federal agencies doesnt hurt either.
I know Texas DPS has used this round with success in several shootings. But as stressed earlier, it is not so much what you shoot them with as where you hit them.
The one main drawback of the .357 SIG is that there are not alot of loads available for it. That is starting to change though as the round is becoming more popular. Being adopted by State local and Federal agencies doesnt hurt either.
I know Texas DPS has used this round with success in several shootings. But as stressed earlier, it is not so much what you shoot them with as where you hit them.
Apropro: I had a lively discussion at the gun shop day before yesterday with an employee there (from whom I've bought several guns to give him the commission, as I like him). He is a die-hard .357 mag revolver lover. When we were discussing the article I had read in G&A that did a head-to-head comparison between sig and mag in this caliber, he refused to believe the findings I reported to him (that in comparable-sized guns, the .357 sig out-vels the .357 mag loadings of TODAY, in 125 gr loadings), and he even suggested the article was a fraud. But to me, the article seemed to have tested the two thoroughly and somewhat scientifically and did conclude this (not to mention the firepower of a .357sig gun). The article also said that with 158 or 180 grain loadings, the 357mag had the edge. But as mentioned, the sig round wins hands-down in comparable-sized handguns with 125 grainers (the author compared 4.5 or 5 inch-barreled pistols with 3 and 4-inch barreled revolvers, and compact autos - 3.5 inch give or take with snubbie 2-inch revolvers).
The only difference in the two, theorically, is that IF your revolver bullet is semi-jacketed, not fully jacketed (not an option for the sig round), you might get better expansion from the mag because of the exposed lead.
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited August 11, 1999).]
The only difference in the two, theorically, is that IF your revolver bullet is semi-jacketed, not fully jacketed (not an option for the sig round), you might get better expansion from the mag because of the exposed lead.
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited August 11, 1999).]
One difference I'm aware of: The SIG uses .355 diameter bullets, therefore, the excellent selection of .357 revolver bullets are not available to the SIG handloader (who must use 9mm bullets).
Another point is the short neck makes it problematical for reloaders to seat the bullets firmly enough to resist the violent action of a self-loader.
If you are that sold on a 38 Automatic, why not try the Super 38 in the venerable Colt Gummint model? It has all the ballistics of the SIG with a (to me) stronger case. The muzzle flash and report are truly astounding!
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Yankee Doodle
Another point is the short neck makes it problematical for reloaders to seat the bullets firmly enough to resist the violent action of a self-loader.
If you are that sold on a 38 Automatic, why not try the Super 38 in the venerable Colt Gummint model? It has all the ballistics of the SIG with a (to me) stronger case. The muzzle flash and report are truly astounding!
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Yankee Doodle
I love the Sig round. Its as accurate a handgun cartridge as I've ever shot. Where you aim is where that suckers goin'! And as far as handloading probs,you just got to make sure you don't over expand at the powder station,and that your crimp is neither too tight which will bulge the case nor too loose. I usually test it with calipers. I push it in manually by using the bench edge to see if I can move it,then cycle it at least three times in the auto to make sure it aint gonna budge. No probs,its fun to shoot and I like it.
I know the 357 Sig has devoted followers and is a good round, but I'm not convinced it will do anything better than the best .40 S&W or .45 ACP rounds, much less the 10 mm rounds. I tried it and found that with the bottle-neck configuration, loading the last rounds in the mag tends to make the last round loaded to nose dive and makes full loading of the mag something of a problem, unless you use a loading tool. However, YMMV
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OJ
NRA LIFE MEMBER
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OJ
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Futu Inu: Suggest your friend come on down to the range and test Remington to Remington, Winchester to Winchester, 4" to 4". EVERYONE knows and HAS known that the velocities published for .357 magnum have been overstated for about, oh, say, 65 years! The problem is, once they start the exageration, if they start telling the truth, no one will want to buy their load, because it's "150 fps slower than those other'uns!"
The answer is in Dr. Oehler's device. We took out the baby Glock .357 Sig and were just amazed. In the itty bitty, it almost reached published velocities. Surprisingly accurate, too. I'm very skeptical, normally, but I really hope this one takes. It is so far and away head and shoulders above the 9mm, how could anyone take offense?
With proper bullets and a good rest, I wouldn't quibble with a man who wanted to take it deer hunting for shots under 25 yards.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited August 12, 1999).]
The answer is in Dr. Oehler's device. We took out the baby Glock .357 Sig and were just amazed. In the itty bitty, it almost reached published velocities. Surprisingly accurate, too. I'm very skeptical, normally, but I really hope this one takes. It is so far and away head and shoulders above the 9mm, how could anyone take offense?
With proper bullets and a good rest, I wouldn't quibble with a man who wanted to take it deer hunting for shots under 25 yards.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited August 12, 1999).]
The 357 Sig round has good velocity but I don't like the muzzle blast/flash trade off you get for this slight improvement over a good 9mm load. You can get over 1300 FPS with the 9mm 115gr bullet with a 5" barrel and it shoots milder.
As far as hunting deer with a 357Sig round I guess it would be OK if your the type who likes wounding animals and chasing them for a day.
Hiker
Hiker
As far as hunting deer with a 357Sig round I guess it would be OK if your the type who likes wounding animals and chasing them for a day.
Hiker
Hiker
I'd like to echo the praise of the 357 SIG. It does jam out of there! My P229 was accurate as all get out. I just like my Gummints better. The Super 38 and the 357 SIG are almost like two peas in a pod, performance-wise. The 9X19 is a little less potent than these 9s. But for 38 cal auto, SIG or ACP be da ONE!
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Yankee Doodle
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Yankee Doodle
I thought that trying for 1400 fps in .38 Super was somewhat problematical and risky, while it was easily attained in .357 SIG. No need for special +P brass, etc....
IMO, the .357 SIG is a viable replacement for the .40 S&W for those who desire significantly greater accuracy.
After all, isn't shot placement everything? .40 S&W beyond 25 yards sounds downright irresponsible if your gun/ammo combo is doing no better than 5-inch groups. I've shot revolvers that would do 5 inches at 75 yards.
Remember North Hollywood--head shots! Parking lot and across-the-street engagement distances! And how many of us CCW an AR-15?
You use what you've got with you. I vote for .357 SIG over .40 S&W, at least until they start getting some accuracy out of the .40.
IMO, the .357 SIG is a viable replacement for the .40 S&W for those who desire significantly greater accuracy.
After all, isn't shot placement everything? .40 S&W beyond 25 yards sounds downright irresponsible if your gun/ammo combo is doing no better than 5-inch groups. I've shot revolvers that would do 5 inches at 75 yards.
Remember North Hollywood--head shots! Parking lot and across-the-street engagement distances! And how many of us CCW an AR-15?
You use what you've got with you. I vote for .357 SIG over .40 S&W, at least until they start getting some accuracy out of the .40.
Mike Spight
New member
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that there was not (or I was unaware of) a lot of data available yet ref the stopping capability of the .357 SIG.
I visited Evan Marshall's website earlier today...someone had asked him questions concerning this very topic ref the .357 SIG. Marshall's reply was (in essence) although he wants to see more data, shooting reports available so far from Texas and other local/state agencies indicate "one shot stops" with this round to occur "...90-92%..." of the time. Not bad...right up there with the .357 Mag w/125gr JHPs and the .45 ACP.
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited August 17, 1999).]
I visited Evan Marshall's website earlier today...someone had asked him questions concerning this very topic ref the .357 SIG. Marshall's reply was (in essence) although he wants to see more data, shooting reports available so far from Texas and other local/state agencies indicate "one shot stops" with this round to occur "...90-92%..." of the time. Not bad...right up there with the .357 Mag w/125gr JHPs and the .45 ACP.
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited August 17, 1999).]
There is a good article in the October 99 issue of Handguns magazine written by Ed Sanow. It lists the details as to why the Texas DPS went to .357 SIG, and includes data on shootings with all calibers that were issued by the DPS.
The .357 SIG, and .357 mag. in 125 gr. loads produce 87% one shot stops according to the article.
There were other factors in choosing the .357 SIG such as less muzzle flash, less recoil, flatter trajectory than .45 acp, and increased qualification scores.
The .357 SIG, and .357 mag. in 125 gr. loads produce 87% one shot stops according to the article.
There were other factors in choosing the .357 SIG such as less muzzle flash, less recoil, flatter trajectory than .45 acp, and increased qualification scores.
BrokenArrow
New member
I've shot a lot of 357 SIG ammo through Glock 22/23/27/35s with Glock and KKM barrels in them.
Accuracy is better than the 40 (OTOH, my 40 SIGs were tighter than the 357 Glocks)reliability about the same. Recoil/blast in 357S was more severe than the 40, and both were a lot more than my Glock 21/30, even w 45 +P.
Terminal ballistics?
The 125 Speer/Federal/Hornady 357 SIG loads are closer to the 158 than 125 Magnum revolver loads as far as penetration/expansion/stretch and tactical barrier penetration. About the same as the better 40/45 loads, which expand more.
Saw the Handguns article. Knocking a gel block off the table means diddly; I could kick it farther off the table with my boot than any 357 SIG, Magnum, or 45 load too.
TX DPS had some failures w their 45s; don't know those weren't due to motivated criminals as much as bullet performance, nor that the 357S would have done any better in the same shootings. I know depts that have had better luck with the 45 than the Magnum. Still others w strings of over 10 one shot stops with the 9mm Silvertip; does that make it better than the 357 SIG?
More of the same; not better. If you like it, go for it.
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Accuracy is better than the 40 (OTOH, my 40 SIGs were tighter than the 357 Glocks)reliability about the same. Recoil/blast in 357S was more severe than the 40, and both were a lot more than my Glock 21/30, even w 45 +P.
Terminal ballistics?
The 125 Speer/Federal/Hornady 357 SIG loads are closer to the 158 than 125 Magnum revolver loads as far as penetration/expansion/stretch and tactical barrier penetration. About the same as the better 40/45 loads, which expand more.
Saw the Handguns article. Knocking a gel block off the table means diddly; I could kick it farther off the table with my boot than any 357 SIG, Magnum, or 45 load too.
TX DPS had some failures w their 45s; don't know those weren't due to motivated criminals as much as bullet performance, nor that the 357S would have done any better in the same shootings. I know depts that have had better luck with the 45 than the Magnum. Still others w strings of over 10 one shot stops with the 9mm Silvertip; does that make it better than the 357 SIG?
More of the same; not better. If you like it, go for it.
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Shamster,
I concur with the opinion that it's where you hit them that counts the most.
Once upon a time, I was heavily into the this caliber versus that caliber debate, but then I began to teach other people how to shoot. I noticed that different gun and caliber combinations serve different peoples needs very differently. There isn't a single best caliber for everyone.
Yes, there are limits to this and I am aware of them, but if you stay within the acceptable range of power for self defense, then actually LIKING the gun/caliber you carry and having CONFIDENCE in them is more important than I can say. For me, the acceptable power floor is .38 Special +P in revolvers and 9mm Parabellum in autos. This assumes quality ammo of course.
Liking your chosen sidearm encourages pride of ownership, confidence, practice, etc. Confidence in your chosen sidearm engenders trust in the weapon, assists coolness under pressure, and improves your performance at the range.
For me, I've found I shoot the Smith & Wesson .41 Magnum revolvers better than any other caliber/gun combination. Why? Beats me! I'm not going to argue with it though as few argue with the .41 Magnum in competent hands.
With respect to the .357 SIG, I've never fired it, but the combination of SIG-Sauer and Federal Cartridge who developed the concept is excellent. I'd definitely give it a look if you are interested.
Remember, the most important aspect of handgun stopping power is shooting your chosen gun/cartridge combination well. If you find the .357 SIG shoots that way for you, stick with it and don't look back.
- Anthony
I concur with the opinion that it's where you hit them that counts the most.
Once upon a time, I was heavily into the this caliber versus that caliber debate, but then I began to teach other people how to shoot. I noticed that different gun and caliber combinations serve different peoples needs very differently. There isn't a single best caliber for everyone.
Yes, there are limits to this and I am aware of them, but if you stay within the acceptable range of power for self defense, then actually LIKING the gun/caliber you carry and having CONFIDENCE in them is more important than I can say. For me, the acceptable power floor is .38 Special +P in revolvers and 9mm Parabellum in autos. This assumes quality ammo of course.
Liking your chosen sidearm encourages pride of ownership, confidence, practice, etc. Confidence in your chosen sidearm engenders trust in the weapon, assists coolness under pressure, and improves your performance at the range.
For me, I've found I shoot the Smith & Wesson .41 Magnum revolvers better than any other caliber/gun combination. Why? Beats me! I'm not going to argue with it though as few argue with the .41 Magnum in competent hands.
With respect to the .357 SIG, I've never fired it, but the combination of SIG-Sauer and Federal Cartridge who developed the concept is excellent. I'd definitely give it a look if you are interested.
Remember, the most important aspect of handgun stopping power is shooting your chosen gun/cartridge combination well. If you find the .357 SIG shoots that way for you, stick with it and don't look back.
- Anthony
Broken Arrow,
The failures mentioned in the article were of the .45 to penetrate vehicles (doors) and then go on to cause terminal damage to the driver. There are all sorts of factors for failures to occur, but whatever the reason DPS officials chose the SIG round with the confidence that it will do the job for them. I happen to agree, and that is why I own a 229 and 239 chambered in .357 SIG.
All we need now is a gun chambered to fire your boot. Ballistic gelatin beware
BTW one of my instructors (also a current DPS instructor) mentioned in a class that they found the faster round causes more trauma than the slow moving .45 caliber. I am not sure I agree with that, but that apparently is what they are teaching recruits at the academy.
The failures mentioned in the article were of the .45 to penetrate vehicles (doors) and then go on to cause terminal damage to the driver. There are all sorts of factors for failures to occur, but whatever the reason DPS officials chose the SIG round with the confidence that it will do the job for them. I happen to agree, and that is why I own a 229 and 239 chambered in .357 SIG.
All we need now is a gun chambered to fire your boot. Ballistic gelatin beware
BTW one of my instructors (also a current DPS instructor) mentioned in a class that they found the faster round causes more trauma than the slow moving .45 caliber. I am not sure I agree with that, but that apparently is what they are teaching recruits at the academy.
BrokenArrow
New member
Depends on what you mean by "trauma" I guess.
There are 40/45 loads that exp/pen/stretch as good/better than the 357 SIG, even through auto steel/glass (Rem GS/ Fed HS comes to mind). Did DPS look at them?
I know my Glock 21/30 handle much better than any Glock/SIG in 357/40, even w +P ammo, and I doubt the 357 SIG goes any deeper and gets any bigger after glass/steel than the GS/HS ammo I use?
If it works for them, and they are happy, keep smiling!
Just seems strange the Indiana State Police seemed to get better results with their 147 9 mm HS than DPS did with their 45s.
I can justify any choice/changes I make at the drop of a hat, I suppose DPS is the same?
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There are 40/45 loads that exp/pen/stretch as good/better than the 357 SIG, even through auto steel/glass (Rem GS/ Fed HS comes to mind). Did DPS look at them?
I know my Glock 21/30 handle much better than any Glock/SIG in 357/40, even w +P ammo, and I doubt the 357 SIG goes any deeper and gets any bigger after glass/steel than the GS/HS ammo I use?
If it works for them, and they are happy, keep smiling!
Just seems strange the Indiana State Police seemed to get better results with their 147 9 mm HS than DPS did with their 45s.
I can justify any choice/changes I make at the drop of a hat, I suppose DPS is the same?
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