.357 Sig vs .45

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Red Bull

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Perhaps I titled this wrong because I don't want it to be a caliber debate, but a caliber discussion.
I am a .45 fan. I like the fact that it is dependable. It does not depend on magic tricks, it just makes a big hole.
But, I am thinking of going to the .357 magnum/Sig side, and I am thinking that it is just *slightly* better in most cases.

Before the .45 fans get in a huff, just step back and look at it rationally, and remember that they both work well, and I just would like to discuss the differences to see if my thinking is correct.

I have basically decided that the .45 is a great hole-maker, but that the .357 Mag not only makes a good hole on a bad day, but on a good day it makes a very good hole AND great energy dump.
Even though I have generally been seen as anti-MS, it is just the skeptic in me. That skeptic must also think that there is the possibility that energy dump does have *some* effect, even if some people agree. It is *possible* that the studies like MS and Strasbourgh are legit, and even if they are legit or not, it is *possible* that energy is had some deciding factor in the immediate effect of a handgun bullet incapaitating a person,.
With the .357 Sig, I feel that I can go the direction of the high-energy worshipers, without sacrificing the penetration that I like. Most bullet selections make you choose one or the other, like choosing between the 135gr .40 or the heavier 155-180gr .40. You have to choose either penetration OR energy dump. The 10mm and the .357 Sig seem to offer both high-energy AND penetration. The .357 Sig just offers what the 10mm offers, but in a smaller package.

It seems to me that the .357 Sig pleases all schools of thought: It has a big initial energy dump, but it also penetrates well over 12 inches (I am picturing a 125gr Gold Dot here). The wound profile for a 125gr Gold Dot at 1440+ fps and 550+ KE shows a big initial energy dump like the 135gr .40 shows, but coupled with about 16 inches of penetration. The .357 Sig, out of a short barrled gun, has equivelent energy to a 10mm in the same size barrel. Looking at the wound profile, it seems to do everything that is asked of a bullet from both sides of the light/fast and the heavy/penetrator bullet debate: it gives the big energy dump, and has lots of energy to do it with, but also penetrates well because it has a high sectional density,

Also, with the speeds it is going at, hollowpoint expansion is very reliable. The odds of it only making a 9mm hole are very very slim, even after penetrating barriers.

So...am I missing something here? It seems that the .357 Sig leaves little to be desired. Is it possible that it is the ultimate cartridge design, like the 10mm was, with enough juice to fill all roles?

Are there any downfalls to the .357 Sig? It seems like the ultimate round.
(This isn't even mentioning the many benefits of the bottleneck cartridge, but just looking at ballistics).
 
If there are any real downfalls to the 357 SIG, the most noted is the lack of ammo availability and also load variations. I have heard some people complain that ammo is high priced, but I have found CCI Lawman for as little as $10 a box.
I imagine that with the popularity the 357 SIG round has gained recently, that a wider variety of ammo will become available, and that prices may come down.
As far as ballistics of the 357 SIG, you got me there. You seem to have some pretty good info on it RB.
 
Admittedly I got most of my info over on Glocktalk (www.glocktalk.com) on their .357 Sig forum (they have a forum just for discussion of the .357 Sig about halfway down the list of forums).

Aparently there are a few dealers selling CCI Blazer FMJ practice ammo for only $8.40 a box (50 rounds). At prices like that, the .357 Sig becomes more attractive.

IMHO, the ultimate load for the .357 Sig already exists, so I am not worried about load selection. I love the tough Gold Dot bullets, and CCI-Speer has just about perfected the 125gr .357 Sig for anyone that likes bullets that stay together. (If you like bullets that fragment, they are out there too). The CCI Speer 125gr Gold Dot moves at an honest 1425-1550fps ( depending on barrel length, 4 inches to 5.5 inches), with 550-650 foot pounds of kinteic energy. The wound profile in gelatin looks very promising, like a 135gr .40 in energy dump, coupled with a very reliable 16 inches of penetration, even through barriers. So far, I can't see anything but good points about the cartridge. People say that thh ultimate cartridge will never exist, but we seem to get closer and closer all the time with technology, and the .357 Sig seems like a step in the right direction.
 
Biggest drawback I know is it is a bottleneck case so you can't get carbide dies for reloading. Which means you have to hand lube every case. As a police officer I see them both as "real" calibers. I would never carry a 9mm on duty for instance, likewise a Glock in any caliber. I have see one of the blowups that Glock tries to deny happen and a plastic gun blowing up is not pretty. If anyone wants info on that subject let me know.
 
PROTOOLMAN,

I agree with the choice of not carrying a 9mm. My reasons may be diffrent than yours. May i ask what your reasons are?

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TIM : )
 
Red Bull,
I beleieve that I can speak with some authority on the .357 SIG. I have worked on numerous SIG pistols in this caliber and have fired over 1500 rounds through my P226 without a hitch and hundreds of rounds through others such as AMT and Glock. It is a very capable performer using any standard of measurement and only suffers three drawbacks:
1. Limited ammunition availability. I just never completely trust a caliber that can not be purchased at my local hardware store. This is improving, by the way.
2. Reloading difficulty. The bottleneck cartridge problems have been mentioned in a prior post. News flash! The SIG .357 is simply not a .40 S&W case necked down to a 9mm.
3. Primer flow. This one is the biggie, folks. Every factory cartridge out now other than the specified brass-colored primers in the Gold Dots is showing signs of it. I first heard about it about two years ago and since then have witnessed or read documentation on numerous light primer strikes. The round is so hot that primer flow particles start collecting on the firing pin tip. The simple fix is to depress the firing pin lock on the bottom of your slide and clean the pin after each session at the range.
No round is perfect. The 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40 vs. the Inbred .88 Mangle Em controversy reminds me of a dog chasing its tail and only serves to sell a lot of gun magazines. Proper bullet selection is much more important than caliber. Most important of all is bullet placement. I have carried .38s, 9mms, .357s, .41s, .44s and .45s over the years and was confident in all. All the talk about which is best reminds me of a "bench racing session" that you automobile types are familar with. Controversy sells, right?
Take care and God bless,
Paladin
 
Protoolman-
Let's please not get into the kB!s because they have been beat to death in discussion and basically: all guns blow up at one time or another, and with 2 million Glocks out there and everyone looking for a reason to hate Glocks, a few are gonna blow, and everyone is sure to hear about it.

BUT, that brings up another bonus of the .357 Sig ! First, the web is thicker in the brass, making the whole setup stronger. Second, and even better, in Glocks, it is the first round that they have made their guns for with a completely supported chamber! Yes, a fully supported chamber! (You can see that I am excited about this). That means, none of the dreaded "lack of support in the 6 O'Clock position" just like the 1911 has had forever, which is part of the blame for the explosions in teh higher-pressure rounds (mostly poor reloads). Why does it have a fully supported chamber? Because it is a bottleneck cartridge and, while Glocks strive for %100 reliability, the cartridge is so reliable due to it's shape that they, and others I assume, can use a fully supported chamber and keep up there reliabilty.
I suspect that we will not be hearing of any large amounts of .357 Sig caliber Glock explosions....but as I said, all guns blow up once in a while, and as the .357 Sig gains popularity, I am sure that some people that are looking for a reason to shoot it down will find something wrong with it by blowing a few examples out of proportion.

Paladin-
Sounds like the firing pin maintenence will be no problem. I have NO problems maintaining my weapons. All I care is that they work when I maintain them. If that is the only problem with the round, is just to check the striker and clean it, then I can easily deal with it. It is one of those problems that is solved simply by knowing it exists. Thanks for letting me know.


Ps- I hear that there could be a problem with the bullet sinking if the round is chambered to many times and it gets beat up. This is course happens when people use a particular defensive bullet and keep re-chambering the same one every day, not looking at the effect it is having on the bullet that their life depends upon. Apparently, (and this is only heresay), that bottle-necked cartridge, especially when reloaded, can be kinda weaker in holding the bullet in place. This means that if the round is chambered up the ramp to many times, the bullet can sink. This can of course reduce volume in the case and cause excessive pressures. Excesive pressures are a very bad thing on such a hot round.
But, this is another case of just paying attention to what you are doing. Look at the round you are re-chambering every day, inspect it, and make sure it is in good shape. Better yet, don't reload the same defensive round into your gun every day. Get a new one out and rotate them, and shoot up the old ones. Your life depends on these bullets, don't be cheap about it and reuse a 40 cent bullet until it falls apart.
I am not sure if this is an issue in factory loads, but more in reloads where the reloader might not do the crimp correctly etc. Possibly, it is not an issue if you use factory ammo. I don't know yet, as I don't own a .357 Sig yet ;)

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited November 01, 1999).]
 
The 357 SIG chambers in the Glock are more supported, not fully supported. My USPs/SIGs in 40 have more support than the Glock 357.

I have seen USPs/SIGs kB too BTW. And 1911s, and BHPs, and Berettas, and CZs...

Enough people out there using the 357 SIG; time will tell.

TX DPS thought their old Magnums worked better than the 45s they had. They will know in time if the 357 SIG is as good, or not, as either. So far so good I hear, but it's early yet.

The 9mm +P works pretty good. So does the +P+. The 357 SIG (a 9mm +P++ :))shouldn't be any worse?

NYPD is using the 124 +P Gold Dot. The 357 SIG is basically the same w even more oomph. Since NYPD shoots a lot of people, we will know something one way or the other soon enough?

Primer flow? I've seen similar probs w 9mm/40/45 ammo and primer sealant in SIGs/USPs/Berettas, etc. Take care of your stuff, and your stuff will take care of you? :)



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The .357 SIG sounds like a great load, esp. for LE. I will not repeat what has already been stated far better than I could say it. What I will say to those interested is that a solution for those who want the velocity of the .357 PLUS the larger frontal area of the .45 already exhists. They are called the .45 Super and the .460 Roland. I am not familiar with the Roland outside of two articles, but the .45 Super is available in 165gr high velocity defensive ammo from two manufacturers. Not as available yet, but its been around since 1994 if memory is correct and is here to stay IMHO. The .460 Roland is even hotter and equals .44mag with far lower chamber pressures. Both are low pressure rounds, in comparison to .357 and .44 mag and should work extremely well out of ported barrels (inasfar as quick follow up shots.)

Reloading: Use SAME carbide dies as .45ACP. No neck shoulder to worry about. Same dimensions as .45ACP w/thicker walls. Must check headstamps to separate from .45ACP while reloading.

Manufacturers need more feed back to increase production of any ammo that we prefer. Sales help too.

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited November 01, 1999).]
 
Yes Jerky, I don't use a 9mm because I reload and the case in my opinion doesn't have much capacity. Also I want a little more power than it provides. If I had to caryy it I would use hot 124 gr hollowpoints.
 
Just a question and a observation.The main problem so I have read is overpenatration with 9mm.If this is the case wouldn't the 357 sig be even worse?Faster round with the same diameter.
Bob
 
Beemerb,

I don't remember the figures, but the high velocity +p 9mm ammo expands rapidly and penetrates less than most of its slower counterparts. One of the reasons that I like Corbon 115gr +p is this very reason. Also, it is known for fragmenting. It has adequate penetration yet does not overpenetrate. Bullet design has more to do w/amount of penetration at given velocities than velocity alone. Albeit, higher velocities result in greater chance of expansion. Bullets that violently expand, especially those that fragment, tend to penetrate less than those that do not violently expand at the same velocities. About a year ago, I read a comparison of 357SIG ammo in ord. geletan and found that at the time, most loads did not fragment and did penetrate much deeper than hot +p 9mm. This, I believe is due to the fact that the Sig ammo is geared toward law enforcement that tends toward a philosophy of deeper penetration. This is not a blanket statement, only an observation of a trend which may or may not follow the fbi philosophy.

Most calibers 9mm and greater are comparibly effective in thier most effective loadings.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
I know this is a side issue, but can someone clear up what the NYPD shoot these days. I was last in NYC last November, and the shooting press at that time were reporting that the NYPD had just switched to the VERY effective 9mm Remington 115gr JHP +P+, I have read elsewhere that they shoot .45ACP and now .357 Sig. Maybe they just use the Lorcin .380's they get off the BG's and shoot handloaded LRN's. Seriously though, does anyone know what they actually shoot in their guns ?

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Mike H
 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Glocks blow up all the time and a .45 caliber round hits about as hard as a wet noodle compared to a .357SIG...
God I hate small bullets!!!
 
I greatly enjoy my Sig P-226 in .357 Sig; it fires a very accurate, high velocity round. Similarly, my full size Kimber 1911A1 and my Sig P-220 are both terrific, and the .45 ACP is a proven "world class" defensive round with great accuracy, reach, and stopping power.

However, may I respectfully suggest this .45 versus .357 Sig discussion may have overlooked a key issue: What's the mission, the target, and is anything shielding the target?

Several major law enforcement agencies have recently adopted the .357 Sig (although, not necessarily as their mandatory round). The Texas and Virginia State Police, for example, now use the .357 Sig. It is my understanding, however, that they opted for that round due to their relatively unique requirements to penetrate automobile bodies/glass and still have adequate projectile velocity remaining to stop the BG.

That's a very different scenario than most CCW-holders face. We are unlikely to confront a situation where we must shoot through a vehicle to stop a BG. Rather, we are liable to be face-to-face with the criminal we meet.

Accordingly, I suggest the weapon and round selected must be designed to fit the probable scenario(s). For many LEOs, this requires face-to-face plus through-the-vehicle capabilities. For CCW-holders, on the other hand, I suspect the face-to-face defensive confrontation dominates.
 
As a BIG .45 fan it is hard for me to admit that there are other AUTO calibers out there...
And yes I think it is the best SELF-DEFENSE cartridge available, it is a no B.S. round.

However, I have owned two .357 SIG pistols, I still own one (P239) and think the world of it!

The .357 SIG is a GREAT cartridge in every way but $$$ and availability...

My experience with this cartridge has been one of AWE! It is extremely accurate and a very smooth/reliable feeder.

When I owned my P229 some .40S&W ammo would occasionally jam! Granted it was the lighter stuff...
But it jammed all the same!

This never, ever, ever happened with the bottle necked .357SIG!!!

Nothing against the .40S&W!

I believe it (.40S&W) to be a really good cartridge, the best compromise between the 9mm and .45ACP.

I can only hope that the .357SIG can gain the same acceptance as the .40S&W...

This would perhaps eliminate the probs of cost and availability that may at one time eliminate this cartridge as a selection choice when buying a weapon. (ala the 10MM)

P.S. Please no 10mm hate mail, I think it is a good cartridge, but very few people buy weapons chambered in this cartridge. I for one will never own a 10mm...

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SURE SHOT
 
NYPD recently switched to the 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P load. Previously, they were stuck with 9mm ball (115 gr). This changed after that Diallo shooting last year.
 
NYPD did try the Rem 115 +P+ for a short time, but there were some problems in some Glocks (I hear), so they went Gold Dot in 124 +P.

Penetration/expansion for the 9mm +P/357 Gold Dot is about the same: FBI shows up to 16 in bare gel, and 20 in cloth, expansion in bare gel .60-.68, .55 in cloth and glass.

This is about the same pen as the 158 Magnum and 147 9mm, and some thought they went too deep.

Seems to be carving a niche w state police; several in this area giving it a very hard look. With the right load, like the Secret Service Ranger Talon or CorBon, it is a good low pen load too (and a closer match to the 125 revolver load).

A tad more accurate than the 40, should have better feed reliability (if that means better overall reliability isn't proven yet). I think the 9/40/45/357 are as reliable as quality of the guns and ammo used. I have seen jams w 357 in SIGs, Glocks w Rem UMC for example.

Time will tell.

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From what I can gather, the .357 SIG essentially duplicates .357 Mag. capabilities--which is more than sufficient for personal use. There would be nothing to prevent an agency such as my old one from going over to it (and I think it would be a good idea) as they bought all their ammo new on contract. OTOH, since I now have to rustle my own ammo the apparent handloading complications make it less suitable for me as an individual. Consequently I could envision a distinct place for it in law enforcement and a much smaller portion of the citizen market. Sure seems like a reliable screamer, though!

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Actually, it doesn't really duplicate the .357 Mag. The .357 Sig rather duplicates the smaller grained .357 Mag rounds. The .357 Mag can launch a 158gr JHP at 1475fps.(check georgiaarms.com) And a 180gr JHP at 1200fps. Now that's .357 Mag power!
 
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