Looking for some input here. I'm looking at the two calibers(357 SIG + 10mm) and was wondering if anybody can give me a comparison between the two rounds? The guns would be a Glock in 10mm, or a SIG or Glock in 357 SIG. I would use either gun for everyday carry, for defensive type situations most probable. How about recoil, bullet weight options, muzzle flash? Thanks for the help, RD
357 SIG or 10 mm?
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Rob Pincus
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I'm more interested in your thought process that lead you to these two rounds.
Are you just looking to carry something "different" ??
Any conversation of "what to carry" should include at least a couple standarad calibres, IMHO.
Witin the limits you've set youself, you have two rather different rounds. One you can shoot out of a small-medium sized gun, is not very proven, has excellent balistic potential, is very expensive. The other you need to shoot out of a full size or large gun, has a little longer track record, excellent ballistic potential and is not quite so expensive.
Both are oddball enough so that finding supplies of ammo might be difficult, especially if you are not willing to pay a premium.
The Glock 20 is a Big gun for everyday carry. The G29 is wide, but smaller. Both guns have noticably more recoil than a .40 or .45, but can be shot fast and accurately with practice.
The Glocks and Sigs in .357 are much slimmer and will be much easier to carry around constantly. I carry a G23 most of the time, which has a .357 counterpart. But, the recoil on the .357 is going to be much snappier.. muzzle blast is also of more concern, though that will vary from eadch manufacturer and Ihave no direct experience with the .357 Sig under low/no light situations.
Either way, I think you'd be better off looking at a .40 or a .45 for everyday carry.
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-Essayons
Are you just looking to carry something "different" ??
Any conversation of "what to carry" should include at least a couple standarad calibres, IMHO.
Witin the limits you've set youself, you have two rather different rounds. One you can shoot out of a small-medium sized gun, is not very proven, has excellent balistic potential, is very expensive. The other you need to shoot out of a full size or large gun, has a little longer track record, excellent ballistic potential and is not quite so expensive.
Both are oddball enough so that finding supplies of ammo might be difficult, especially if you are not willing to pay a premium.
The Glock 20 is a Big gun for everyday carry. The G29 is wide, but smaller. Both guns have noticably more recoil than a .40 or .45, but can be shot fast and accurately with practice.
The Glocks and Sigs in .357 are much slimmer and will be much easier to carry around constantly. I carry a G23 most of the time, which has a .357 counterpart. But, the recoil on the .357 is going to be much snappier.. muzzle blast is also of more concern, though that will vary from eadch manufacturer and Ihave no direct experience with the .357 Sig under low/no light situations.
Either way, I think you'd be better off looking at a .40 or a .45 for everyday carry.
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-Essayons
Rob Pincus
New member
In that case, I'd steer you towards the 10mm. It offers more raw power than the .357 Sig and is a suitable hunting round to boot!
I second Rob's suggestion of the 10mm.
In my battery I have a Glock 20, S&W 1086, and a S&W 1006. All are reliable and rugged sidearms. A compact Glock 29 will be joining the battery very soon.
Overall, I'd reccommend a Glock 20 or 29 for you as these are the most affordable and durable (nice combo, eh) 10mms available.
The 10mm also lets you vary the power level over a widerange. Basically you have the power of anything from a .40 S&W to a low end .41 Magnum.
- Anthony
In my battery I have a Glock 20, S&W 1086, and a S&W 1006. All are reliable and rugged sidearms. A compact Glock 29 will be joining the battery very soon.
Overall, I'd reccommend a Glock 20 or 29 for you as these are the most affordable and durable (nice combo, eh) 10mms available.
The 10mm also lets you vary the power level over a widerange. Basically you have the power of anything from a .40 S&W to a low end .41 Magnum.
- Anthony
I carry a Glock 20 in a Binanchi PDQ holster for my concealed carry piece here in Texas. Most everybody tells me I can't carry a gun that big (I'm not a very large guy), I will walk side ways, outline, etc. - I've heard them all. With proper bullet/ammo selection I don't find over penetration to be a concern and like the added wallop I have. Down loaded, you have basically a 40S&W but, uploaded you have a 41Magnum. This makes for a flexible solution to almost any situation if you plan accordingly. I don't find recoil to be bad in this gun and muzzle report is not as severe as your average 357Magnum revolver. Whether it is the right pistol for you really depends on what you expect from it. While ammo is not as plentiful as most rounds, I can still buy it from Wal-Mart so it does not appear to be dead as some may suggest.
The 357SIG is a round I put in the same class as a 357Revolver, a 16 shot revolver that is. Ammo selection is improving with time as well. Muzzle report is about what you would expect - you can only do so much with that much gas volume and velocity. I find the smaller frame size to be a benefit to many people as the Glock 20 is a large gun for most hands. If you are looking for a small pocket pistol, check out the Glock 33, otherwise buy a Glock 20.
Both are solid rounds but, approach things from different perspectives. I tend to prefer the middle ground of the big & slow (45ACP) vs. light & fast (357Sig/Magnum) debate with the 10mm. This sort of gives me the best of both worlds, relatively large and relatively fast bullets. Sort of hits the sweet spot for me.
Sid
The 357SIG is a round I put in the same class as a 357Revolver, a 16 shot revolver that is. Ammo selection is improving with time as well. Muzzle report is about what you would expect - you can only do so much with that much gas volume and velocity. I find the smaller frame size to be a benefit to many people as the Glock 20 is a large gun for most hands. If you are looking for a small pocket pistol, check out the Glock 33, otherwise buy a Glock 20.
Both are solid rounds but, approach things from different perspectives. I tend to prefer the middle ground of the big & slow (45ACP) vs. light & fast (357Sig/Magnum) debate with the 10mm. This sort of gives me the best of both worlds, relatively large and relatively fast bullets. Sort of hits the sweet spot for me.
Sid
The 357 Sig is too hot, period. Too single-purpose, too expensive, too esoteric. Good round, though.
The 10mm is everything to everyone, fufilling any possible shooting need, including anti-aircraft capability.
I use mine, downloaded, for IPSC Limited (when I feel the need for an auto). Makes Major easily (unlike the 40S&W).
If you reload get the 10. If you shoot a lot get the ten. If you want to hunt get the 10.
If someone else is buying your gun and ammo get the Sig.
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
The 10mm is everything to everyone, fufilling any possible shooting need, including anti-aircraft capability.
I use mine, downloaded, for IPSC Limited (when I feel the need for an auto). Makes Major easily (unlike the 40S&W).
If you reload get the 10. If you shoot a lot get the ten. If you want to hunt get the 10.
If someone else is buying your gun and ammo get the Sig.
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
Mike Spight
New member
Some good points here...I don't own a 10mm and have never shot one but I can speak about the 357 SIG. As WESHOOT2 points out, it is hot...it does have a loud report (although I haven't noticed unreasonable level of muzzle flash when shooting IDPA indoors) and it ain't cheap (I buy 125gr FMJ flat point new in Star brass from Georgia Arms for $14.50 per 50...if anyone knows of some at a cheaper price, please let me know). I can add that (out of my SIG P226) it is extremely accurate and it will HAMMER down steel just as well as my .45 ACP P220 shooting 230 gr hardball. In fact, it does it much better than my P229 .40 with 180 gr loaded to 950fps by Georgia Arms. Bottom line...I like it...recoil (at least to me) is on par with the .45 ACP or less. Maybe a little more snap due to slide velocity. I think the round will hang around...if I'm not mistaken, the Texas DPS and Virginia State Police have gone to the round...others may follow.
ArizonaMorgan
New member
I believe four state agencies are currently using the .357 sig. I believe Indiana was the first, not sure if they still are. As was pointed out Texas and Virginia issue it. I'm not sure what the other one is, but I know that there is (or was) another one.
[This message has been edited by ArizonaMorgan (edited July 24, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by ArizonaMorgan (edited July 24, 1999).]
Jason Kitta
New member
I understand that the Secret Service is also going to 357 sig.
Jason
Jason
When looking at Glocks, you really are comparing apples to oranges with these two rounds, because the come in very different handguns. I say this because the G33 is a subcompact, like the size of the 9mm G26 (very small Glock). The 10mm is the largest frame of Glocks, and event he "subcompact" 10mm is pretty big.
When looking at this, for concealed carry, I would pick the .357 Sig. Ballistics of the .357 Sig match the unrivaled .357 Magnum. It could also be used for a fair amount of hunting, though sticking to anything that you would take a .357 mag after. You get 10 rounds of .357 Sig in a subcompact Glock that is quite easily concealed. You can buy an aftermarket barrel and shoot .40 cal for practice to save a few bucks. One of the main selling points of the .357 Sig is that it will probably NEVER jam. Dependability is everything in a defense gun, and the bottlenecked cartridge is the most dependable setup.'
One benefit of the .357 Magnum revolver is that it can use very flat, wide, hollowpoints. I figure that with the bottlenecked .357 Sig, hollowpoint designs might even evolve further for this autoloader and be as effective as a revolver's hollowpoint bullet. I am shopping for a Glock 33 myself, which I will also get a .40 cal barrel for to practice with.
[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited July 24, 1999).]
When looking at this, for concealed carry, I would pick the .357 Sig. Ballistics of the .357 Sig match the unrivaled .357 Magnum. It could also be used for a fair amount of hunting, though sticking to anything that you would take a .357 mag after. You get 10 rounds of .357 Sig in a subcompact Glock that is quite easily concealed. You can buy an aftermarket barrel and shoot .40 cal for practice to save a few bucks. One of the main selling points of the .357 Sig is that it will probably NEVER jam. Dependability is everything in a defense gun, and the bottlenecked cartridge is the most dependable setup.'
One benefit of the .357 Magnum revolver is that it can use very flat, wide, hollowpoints. I figure that with the bottlenecked .357 Sig, hollowpoint designs might even evolve further for this autoloader and be as effective as a revolver's hollowpoint bullet. I am shopping for a Glock 33 myself, which I will also get a .40 cal barrel for to practice with.
[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited July 24, 1999).]
My hometown police,LaPorte County,Ind. was the first to adopt the round,I believe. And its a good round. Ive got a G27 with a drop in 33 barrel,and it rocks! Extremely accurate and sharp recoil. Better the first time out with the Sig accuracy wise than my 40 cal! Its good for defense because of its accuracy,but it does let you know its around when firing it! I would'nt hesitate in the least using it for defensive purposes. In fact,I carry the Sig barrel in my G27 more than the 40. I really like that round...
Having shot my friend's compact Glock in .357 Sig with skeptisism (I don't like Glocks, don't trust new rounds...), I've got to grudgingly report that this round is everything it says it is, and maybe more.
We shot it through the Oehler, and its velocities were only about 60 fps lower than published; this is easily accounted for by the ~2" barrel on the little Glock. It's groups were phenomenal, and, with HP's, didn't experience a single failure to feed. I think I'd reload for that one, but I'm not experienced with bottle-necked cases in pistols, so I'd have to check. (Yes, I know Glock's stance on reloading. That's one reason why I like good 'merican guns....
)
But really, why NOT a 10 mm?
Mainstream = convenience.
We shot it through the Oehler, and its velocities were only about 60 fps lower than published; this is easily accounted for by the ~2" barrel on the little Glock. It's groups were phenomenal, and, with HP's, didn't experience a single failure to feed. I think I'd reload for that one, but I'm not experienced with bottle-necked cases in pistols, so I'd have to check. (Yes, I know Glock's stance on reloading. That's one reason why I like good 'merican guns....
)But really, why NOT a 10 mm?
Mainstream = convenience.
As for reliability, my 10mm G20 has not failed me yet. I have also owned this gun for a very long time as I bought it when they first hit the market.
The 10mm round has a great deal of flexibility in it that people tend to over look in their quest for a hand held howitzer. Down loaded (either handloads or FBI loads), you have basically a tame 40S&W (after all you have more gun weight and a larger surface area to spread the recoil around in your hand). At the other end you have basically a 41Magnum revolver which is known as a stiff personal protection piece and a good all round hunting round. Flexability - big time with this round.
The 357Sig round comes pretty close to duplicating a 357Magnum revolver with a 16 round cylinder. If you like faster lighter weight bullets, then this is a good round for you (and the police as well as noted above). There is no free ride in terms of muzzle blast - accelerate everything faster and you get more muzzle blast (think about 38 Special, 38 +P and, 357Magnum to put some real world perspective into it - most of us have already tried this at some point in our lives).
In double stack guns, the 40S&W/357SIG guns are smaller because the size of the round allows it. 45ACP/10mm double stacks can only be made so small due to those fat cases.
As noted above, if you are willing to buy a second barrel in order to shoot lower cost ammo (How many rounds do you shoot? Does this make sense for you?), you can purchase a 40 S&W barrel for a 10mm Glock from Bar-Sto or similar and shoot factory 40S&W rounds. This also works for the 357SIG as well. In a G22/23/27 or G31/32/33 if I bought a barrel to save on ammo cost, I would buy a 9mm barrel and a mag to go with it! Yes, that conversion does work. I will note that the reverse it not true, 9mm Glocks cannot be made to safely use 40S&W/357SIG.
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited July 25, 1999).]
The 10mm round has a great deal of flexibility in it that people tend to over look in their quest for a hand held howitzer. Down loaded (either handloads or FBI loads), you have basically a tame 40S&W (after all you have more gun weight and a larger surface area to spread the recoil around in your hand). At the other end you have basically a 41Magnum revolver which is known as a stiff personal protection piece and a good all round hunting round. Flexability - big time with this round.
The 357Sig round comes pretty close to duplicating a 357Magnum revolver with a 16 round cylinder. If you like faster lighter weight bullets, then this is a good round for you (and the police as well as noted above). There is no free ride in terms of muzzle blast - accelerate everything faster and you get more muzzle blast (think about 38 Special, 38 +P and, 357Magnum to put some real world perspective into it - most of us have already tried this at some point in our lives).
In double stack guns, the 40S&W/357SIG guns are smaller because the size of the round allows it. 45ACP/10mm double stacks can only be made so small due to those fat cases.
As noted above, if you are willing to buy a second barrel in order to shoot lower cost ammo (How many rounds do you shoot? Does this make sense for you?), you can purchase a 40 S&W barrel for a 10mm Glock from Bar-Sto or similar and shoot factory 40S&W rounds. This also works for the 357SIG as well. In a G22/23/27 or G31/32/33 if I bought a barrel to save on ammo cost, I would buy a 9mm barrel and a mag to go with it! Yes, that conversion does work. I will note that the reverse it not true, 9mm Glocks cannot be made to safely use 40S&W/357SIG.
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited July 25, 1999).]
I've had both, SIG 229 in 357 and Colt Delta in 10mm. Still have the colt. The 357 shoots basically a 9mm Parabellum bullet a little faster. The down side is the short neck really doesn't have enough friction on the bullet to counteract the violence of an autoloader. Especially with reloads. High velocity small pills are not as effective as heavier larger ones, IMHO. The 10mm is a real man's weapon. You have to be a shooter because it recoils more than the 45ACP -- Somewhere in the neighborhood of a S&W 44 Magnum -- not as hard as a 454 Casull.
Like everybody said, the 357 is good for a pocket pistol, the 10mm for a belt pistol.
Like everybody said, the 357 is good for a pocket pistol, the 10mm for a belt pistol.
Mike Spight
New member
BigG: "The 10mm is a real man's weapon."
Gosh, I guess that means all my buds who have served (or still serve) on SEAL teams and 22 SAS's operators are a bunch of p$##@*s
as they shoot the lowly 9mm Para out of SIGs.
With all due respect, that has got to be the most sweeping generalization I've seen around here lately.
I have personally experienced no instances of 357 SIG bullets backing down into their cases while loaded in a magazine of my P226 while I was firing it. Note that I do shoot only factory ammo...that may have something to do with it. Has anyone else experience what Big G has described?
Finally, it has been shown time and time again that the primary consideration in evaluating a pistol caliber's effectiveness is shot placement and its ability to consistently penetrate approximately 12 inches of ballistic gelatin...velocity, caliber, .etc are all secondary considerations. All things considered, I don't think you'd get any complaints from a perp shot in the CNS or heart/lung/major vessel structure concerning the fact that it was a wimpy 9mm P instead of a "manly" 10mm. Just MHO...
Mike
Gosh, I guess that means all my buds who have served (or still serve) on SEAL teams and 22 SAS's operators are a bunch of p$##@*s
as they shoot the lowly 9mm Para out of SIGs.
With all due respect, that has got to be the most sweeping generalization I've seen around here lately.
I have personally experienced no instances of 357 SIG bullets backing down into their cases while loaded in a magazine of my P226 while I was firing it. Note that I do shoot only factory ammo...that may have something to do with it. Has anyone else experience what Big G has described?
Finally, it has been shown time and time again that the primary consideration in evaluating a pistol caliber's effectiveness is shot placement and its ability to consistently penetrate approximately 12 inches of ballistic gelatin...velocity, caliber, .etc are all secondary considerations. All things considered, I don't think you'd get any complaints from a perp shot in the CNS or heart/lung/major vessel structure concerning the fact that it was a wimpy 9mm P instead of a "manly" 10mm. Just MHO...
Mike
Mike, with all due respect, I stand by my opinion. Whether or not some of your SEAL friends may be firearms experts, you have to know, I don't know your friends. I know some SF people and they are not all firearms experts by any means. In fact, some did not know which end the bullet came out before entering basic training.
As I said before, 9mm is OK for a pocket pistol, ie, 38 Special type power. Many people today make the mistake of thinking high capacity makes up for the ability to shoot. I'm not one of these. 10mm or 45 ACP are the only commonly available belt pistol rounds in my HO. If you're committed to carry, you mize well have an edge. If you want an easy gun to carry, try a S&W Centennial. Regards, BigG
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Yankee Doodle
As I said before, 9mm is OK for a pocket pistol, ie, 38 Special type power. Many people today make the mistake of thinking high capacity makes up for the ability to shoot. I'm not one of these. 10mm or 45 ACP are the only commonly available belt pistol rounds in my HO. If you're committed to carry, you mize well have an edge. If you want an easy gun to carry, try a S&W Centennial. Regards, BigG
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Yankee Doodle
Mike Spight
New member
BigG: Don't get me wrong...I believe in carrying the biggest thing you can shoot and conceal effectively.
As you know weather conditions will sometimes dictate what is comfortable to carry and conceal. For example, when living in Tampa, I would carry a S&W 442 or 60 in an IWB holster during the hot months with sport shirt pulled out over top of shorts or jeans. In cooler weather (when jackets would not look out of place) I'd go with a cocked and locked .45 or Browning HP (when I still had them...have since gone to SIGs).
Bottomline, we're not in total disagreement with each other. I just could not resist a dig at your assertion that the 10mm was a "real man's" gun. No, I don't own one and have never shot one...I have owned a .41 Magnum S&W Mod 57 (about 20 years ago) and have shot .44 Mag in friends' revolvers quite a bit. Lots of fun...for me, too hard to make effective hits rapidly with full house loads.
One more thing, a J frame Smith is certainly easy to carry...loaded with +P ammo, it is certainly NOT easy to shoot with any degree of effectiveness for those who don't practice with duty ammo on a routine basis...and as Hackathorn wrote recently "...if you EXPECT trouble and carry only a 5 shot J frame, you're an idiot."
Regards,
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
As you know weather conditions will sometimes dictate what is comfortable to carry and conceal. For example, when living in Tampa, I would carry a S&W 442 or 60 in an IWB holster during the hot months with sport shirt pulled out over top of shorts or jeans. In cooler weather (when jackets would not look out of place) I'd go with a cocked and locked .45 or Browning HP (when I still had them...have since gone to SIGs).
Bottomline, we're not in total disagreement with each other. I just could not resist a dig at your assertion that the 10mm was a "real man's" gun. No, I don't own one and have never shot one...I have owned a .41 Magnum S&W Mod 57 (about 20 years ago) and have shot .44 Mag in friends' revolvers quite a bit. Lots of fun...for me, too hard to make effective hits rapidly with full house loads.
One more thing, a J frame Smith is certainly easy to carry...loaded with +P ammo, it is certainly NOT easy to shoot with any degree of effectiveness for those who don't practice with duty ammo on a routine basis...and as Hackathorn wrote recently "...if you EXPECT trouble and carry only a 5 shot J frame, you're an idiot."
Regards,
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited July 27, 1999).]
Mike, we really agree. Whatever gun one decides to carry, they should learn to shoot it with full power loads. Wadcutters are not good training for defensive pistol.
You're right. Anybody that brings a handgun to a gun fight is just not thinking. You bring a rifle if you know there is going to be trouble. That is a paraphrase from Col. Cooper.
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Yankee Doodle
You're right. Anybody that brings a handgun to a gun fight is just not thinking. You bring a rifle if you know there is going to be trouble. That is a paraphrase from Col. Cooper.
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Yankee Doodle
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