357 Ring Of Fire Update

D

Davelliott

New member
Hi guys,
Here's the latest performance data for the 357 Ring Of Fire cartridges.
The starting pressures are 37,000 PSI, and the maximum pressures are
45,000 PSI. The C.O.A.L has been reduced to 1.280 to accommodate a wider range of pistol magazines and hopefully appeal to a larger group.
125 gr. Speer JHP, JSP
POWER PISTOL 1475-1581
140 gr. Sierra JHP
POWER PISTOL 1347-1441
147 gr. Magnus JHP
POWER PISTOL 1257-1345
158 gr. Speer DCSP
POWER PISTOL 1242-1327
170 gr. Speer DCSP, GDSP
POWER PISTOL 1163-1243
200 gr. Magnus LRN
POWER PISTOL 917-976*
* Still developing charges for a 200 grain bullet which is shorter than the LRN...
The guys at Carolina Arms Group are very interested in adding my cartridge to their line!
I am currently in negotiations with Kart Barrels to have barrels made for 1911's by these fine folks, in addition to BarSto!
Now...for those of you partial to
Norma R123 powder...
I showed my cartridge performance estimates to the North American Sales manager, when I went to Atlanta, for the NRA Annual Meeting in late April.
He was so impressed with the projections using the Norma R123 powder, he will send me some to verify ballistics. Oh, by the way, this powder will have starting velocities at 37k psi, ABOVE MAXIMUM velocities of currently made powders! For example:
125 gr. Speer JHP, JSP 1616-1717 fps.
140 gr. Sierra JHP 1484-1575 fps.
147 gr. Hornady XTP 1396-1482 fps.
158 gr. Speer DCSP 1376-1457 fps.
170 gr. Speer DCSP, GDSP 1292-1367 fps.
Those of you who load your own, you can get onboard now! All you need are 9mm dies.
I recommend Carbide dies, and also a factory crimp die with a carbide ring in it, like the Lee Industries die.
Loading data will be supplied with brass.
Accuracy? Well, I fired standing, and was so excited, I was all over...but I dropped to kneeling, and a 5 shot group was 1.5" at 25 yards...minimum acceptable to an old Marine...
 
Sounds fantastic, like a better .357 SIG. I'm looking forward to what comes of this. Hopefully you can eventually get a major manufacturer to bring out a gun in this chambering.
 
All

Oh! We may get Norma R123 powder back when this takes off! Wouldn't that be great?
I'm also trying to get an American company to get onboard this idea. Competition is good right?

We're going to have conversion units and brass from Starline.

Thanks again!
Dave
 
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All

Yes!
I ran out of room in the first post...
I went to Atlanta for the NRA Annual meeting.
I visited EVERY GUNMAKER there! All were impressed. All have some performance data and contact info...
Yes, Colt, Smith&Wesson, Remington, Armscorp, Rock Island Armory, Sig Sauer, FN, STI and I can't recall who else.
I did share this with Rob Leatham, Jesse James (he's making ammo now!), and even had a nice chat with Wiley Clapp! I met Colorado Buck too! He wants to do some tests with them!!! I'm just waiting for him to get back and make arrangements.
 
All

Thanks Constantine, Model12Win!

Yes! It's officially kicked off now!

Barrels will be available with standard or personalized serial numbers on the barrel! Match it to your pistol! Make a statement like Ghost Maker? Most anything you like.

The future is NOW!
 
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Congratulations Dave, your perseverance looks like it's going to pay off. You've been a gentleman and have withstood some pretty severe criticism to get where you are. I hope things continue to go well for you. Maybe some day I'll give one of these a try, they look like a lot of fun.
 
All

Thank you jetinteriorguy! I did bite my tongue so much, my face looked like the end of a shotgun shell...and some reprise slipped out, but I do understand the infection of liberalism is everywhere.
 
JohnKSa

John,
The pressures, powder charges and velocities are computer projections.
Power Pistol was tested, as it's the only powder available to me at this time.
The velocities were all within +/- 10 feet per second of projections...so pressures should follow suit.
 
Are your velocity projections still based upon the Glock 29's barrel length? You might want to look at a longer barrel for your testing because I've found that Power Pistol loves a 6" barrel.

I developed the longslide Glock 20/21L conversion in 2004 with the help of Kevin of KKM and have since shot some 9,000+ hot 10mm loads out of it. My best performance to date are my 'nuclear' 165grn Speer Gold Dot handloads over Power Pistol and at my range (6,100ft asl on a 84° day) using an Oeheler 35 chrono, I've produced 10rd string averages of 1,589fps.

As it looked in 2004 with the world's first 6" KKM 45-10MM conversion barrel:

G20L20L.jpg
 
Pretty neat! It must take a lot to come up with your own cartridge.

Here's some numbers I've got with a 357 SIG 4.5" KKM Glock barrel.

- New Starline brass
- 800x powder
- all loaded to 1.140"
- all using actual .357" bullets
-- velocities are averages round to the nearest 5fps

125gr XTP: 1,620 fps
140gr XTP: 1,455 fps
158gr XTP: 1,390 fps

Others have played with 180's and done well.
 
Davelliott said:
The starting pressures are 37,000 PSI, and the maximum pressures are
45,000 PSI. The C.O.A.L has been reduced to 1.280 to accommodate a wider range of pistol magazines and hopefully appeal to a larger group.
Click to expand...
I hope you're aware that the SAAMI maximum length for .45 ACP is 1.275 inches. The SAAMI spec for the .38 Super is 1.220" to 1.280." That maximum length was chosen, I'm quite certain, because that was the longest dimension that would fit into a 1911 magazine and function.

Regardless of what you hope to accomplish, in your earlier round of posts I believe you mention the 1911. If you hope to sell this new cartridge for use in the 1911, it has to fit the gun. Starting off with a round that's longer than the maximum for a 1911, and which will then be subject to manufacturing tolerances, is probably not a great idea.

Even so, it appears you're shoveling water against the tide. Basically, what you're creating is a .38 Super +P+ (or ++P++). The .38 Super is the maximum size you can fit into a 1911, but you want to get far more performance out of the same size round. And to boost the pressures, you need to use thicker brass, which in turn results in even less case volume.

Have any of these ammunition companies you have discussed this with agreed to run pressure tests?
 
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Aquila Blanca

As stated, the C.O.A.L. was reduced to 1.280 so it would fit in more pistols, meaning the 1911 also.
I'm very aware of SAAMI Specs.
I'm not using 38 super brass. I'm not using 38 super bore either, so relax and enjoy the future. It's waiting for you.
 
I'm not using 38 super brass. I'm not using 38 super bore either, so relax and enjoy the future. It's waiting for you.
Click to expand...

:D

I'm not sure there is a call for this kind of cartridge, but your enthusiasm is admirable. When is the full unveiling?
 
Aguila Blanca

What is the fastest speed that a .38 Super could push some of these bullets and stay within the 38 Super's pressure limit? Take the 125 grain bullet, for example.
 
Davelliott said:
As stated, the C.O.A.L. was reduced to 1.280 so it would fit in more pistols, meaning the 1911 also.
I'm very aware of SAAMI Specs.
I'm not using 38 super brass. I'm not using 38 super bore either, so relax and enjoy the future. It's waiting for you.
Click to expand...
You completely missed my point. 1.280 inches is the maximum length for .38 Super, which is a cartridge that was developed specifically for the 1911. You had to reduce the length of your prototype to get down to the maximum length that will fit a 1911. Have you heard about manufacturing tolerances? Buy a box of any brand name commercial ammunition and measure a sampling of, say, ten rounds picked at random out of the box. Here's a hint: they won't all be the same length.

I understand that you're not using .38 Super brass. That was my second point. In order to boost the pressure significantly higher than .38 Super, you have to use heavier brass, which reduces case volume, which further increases pressure.

I don't have to relax to enjoy the future if this cartridge is what you mean by the future. To you it's obviously some kind of holy grail, and I give you a lot of credit for your perseverance. Personally, I've shot .357 Magnum, and I'm just not interested. I have 1911s in .45 ACP, 9mm, .38 Super, .40 S&W, and .22LR. That's plenty for me.
 
74A95 said:
What is the fastest speed that a .38 Super could push some of these bullets and stay within the 38 Super's pressure limit? Take the 125 grain bullet, for example.
Click to expand...
I have no idea. I don't reload for .38 Super.

If you trust Wikipedia, they list a 124-grain projectile at 1,411 fps.

The Hodgdon/Winchester on-line reloading data site lists one load for .38 Super, again a 124-grain projectile. They show 1,245 fps at 34,600 psi.

In commercial ammo:

PPU ...................... 130-grain, 1,214 fps
Geco ..................... 124-grain, 1,290 fps
Remington UMC ..... 130-grain, 1,215 fps
Aguila .................... 130-grain, 1,220 fps
PMC ...................... 130-grain, 1,092 fps
Fiocchi ................... 129-grain, 1,180 fps
Magtech ................. 130-grain, 1,215 fps
 
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