.357 question
- Thread starter Reeps
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I carried a S&W 357 for years as a duty weapon, law enforcement tends to go to autoloaders these days but a revolver has a lot going for it, simple easy to use!
My standard duty load was the 357 magnum 125 gr JHPs, considered to be one of the very best loads available in 357. The downside is those things are really hot, high velocity and tremendous muzzle flash, there are 2 ways to reduce this, the 158 gr JHPs are still very effective but not quite as intimidating as the 125 gr load, another good alternative is to get 38 Special +P loads in 125 or 158 gr JHPs, still a good load but less intimidating to the shooter.
My standard duty load was the 357 magnum 125 gr JHPs, considered to be one of the very best loads available in 357. The downside is those things are really hot, high velocity and tremendous muzzle flash, there are 2 ways to reduce this, the 158 gr JHPs are still very effective but not quite as intimidating as the 125 gr load, another good alternative is to get 38 Special +P loads in 125 or 158 gr JHPs, still a good load but less intimidating to the shooter.
dairycreek
New member
I carry a S & W Model 60 (J-frame)..................
as my CCW and, for that purpose, it is hard to beat. As far as ammo is concerned I carry the 125 grain Golden Saber 38 special +P. It has proven itself to be extremely accurate in this revolver and is quite easy to shoot. Works for me.
as my CCW and, for that purpose, it is hard to beat. As far as ammo is concerned I carry the 125 grain Golden Saber 38 special +P. It has proven itself to be extremely accurate in this revolver and is quite easy to shoot. Works for me.
Blue Heeler
Moderator
Everyone is right - forget the .357. The way a little Model 60 squirms and writhes with hot ammo is one of life's 'not to be missed' experiences, the power and the glory! To say nothing about the deafening noise.
It is not something I would want to do very often.
It is not something I would want to do very often.
Mastrogiacomo
New member
Well I use the 686 (4" plus) with the hottest load I can find. 
Yet, for my 60 2", I'm fine with using .38, which can be just as effective. I'll be getting a 686 2" next and look forward to having fun trying different loads with it.... 
Yet, for my 60 2", I'm fine with using .38, which can be just as effective. I'll be getting a 686 2" next and look forward to having fun trying different loads with it.... Diamondback
New member
For trail use against bipeds and critters ( NOT bear ) you could use Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 SPL +P Led Semi Wadcutter Hollow Core which does 100fps/351 ft lbs. in a 2" J frame or a reduced load 125gr. .357 like the Rem. Golden Sabers at @ 1200fps or the Pro Load Tactical Lite at @1150 fps.....both down loaded and less flashy than a normal 125gr. .357. yet with the ability to stop bad guys and wild dogs.
-Regards
-Regards
Ben Shepherd
New member
Handloads:
Enough powder to push a speer 158 GDHP out of my sp101 @1250fps.
I am aware of the supposed "legal issues". I've made my choice. Please no flaming.
Why? Because every component in every cartrige is insepected individually.
Enough powder to push a speer 158 GDHP out of my sp101 @1250fps.
I am aware of the supposed "legal issues". I've made my choice. Please no flaming.
Why? Because every component in every cartrige is insepected individually.
Leon Phelps
New member
G56,
I am curious about the 125 grain being one of the very best projectiles for use out of a .357 Mag Revolver. Can you please provide the source of this info? The reason I ask is that the FBI ammo test rated all 125 grain projectiles out of a .357 Mag as very poor. Further, I am not convinced there is much to be gained using a magnum round over the 38 Special +P 158 grain SWCHP for bipedal self-defense.
In the very rare times I have carried a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, I have always used the hereinabove 38 Special load. However, when I am in bear country, I use 180 grain hard cast.
The .357 Mag with 158 grain bullets and heavier do come into their own when barriers have to be penetrated.
Sincerely,
Leon Phelps
I am curious about the 125 grain being one of the very best projectiles for use out of a .357 Mag Revolver. Can you please provide the source of this info? The reason I ask is that the FBI ammo test rated all 125 grain projectiles out of a .357 Mag as very poor. Further, I am not convinced there is much to be gained using a magnum round over the 38 Special +P 158 grain SWCHP for bipedal self-defense.
In the very rare times I have carried a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, I have always used the hereinabove 38 Special load. However, when I am in bear country, I use 180 grain hard cast.
The .357 Mag with 158 grain bullets and heavier do come into their own when barriers have to be penetrated.
Sincerely,
Leon Phelps
"Ray Chapman used to say that the only reason for putting up with the nasty recoil, muzzle flash and deafening blast of the .357 Magnum cartridge was the tremendous stopping power of the 125-grain hollowpoint. Chapman was probably right.
Remington led the way on this more than a quarter century ago with a bullet that screamed out of a 4-inch barrel at as much as 1,450 fps. Its scallop-jacketed hollowpoint tended to open and shed fragments to the side like little razor blades while the still-expanding core of the bullet kept going. Federal's answer was to use a wider-mouth hollowpoint for super-fast expansion. In both cases, the rounds almost never over penetrate, and Indianapolis Police Department reported that in more than 200 shootings there was never an effective return of fire by a perpetrator after taking a solid hit with one. Kentucky State Troopers had so many one-shot stops with it, even with occasional non-centered hits, that they referred to the 125-grain Magnum as "the magic bullet." Texas state troopers said they missed the "lightning bolt effect" of these rounds after they went to .45s, which made the troopers eager to adopt the .357 SIG with similar ballistics.
Personally, I could never see much difference between the Remington and the Federal in flesh, or for that matter, their Winchester and CCI counterparts. But there's no question: Ed Sanow was right when he called the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint .357 Magnum the "king of the street." It delivered a destruction cone optimized for erect bipeds, which is why it outperformed much more potent hunting rounds such as the .41 and .44 Magnum when used in the anti-personnel function. The bigger Magnums frequently spent a lot of their energy exiting the offender's body and looking for a baby carriage on the other side. The 125-grain .357 dumped all its energy in a massively wide path between the front and the back of the offender's torso. Lighter .357 rounds might not go deep enough, and heavier ones often overpenetrated, but the 125-grain hollowpoint was ideal for its purpose at .357 Magnum velocity. When in doubt: 125-grain Remington or Federal semi-jacketed hollowpoint."
-Massad Ayoob
Remington led the way on this more than a quarter century ago with a bullet that screamed out of a 4-inch barrel at as much as 1,450 fps. Its scallop-jacketed hollowpoint tended to open and shed fragments to the side like little razor blades while the still-expanding core of the bullet kept going. Federal's answer was to use a wider-mouth hollowpoint for super-fast expansion. In both cases, the rounds almost never over penetrate, and Indianapolis Police Department reported that in more than 200 shootings there was never an effective return of fire by a perpetrator after taking a solid hit with one. Kentucky State Troopers had so many one-shot stops with it, even with occasional non-centered hits, that they referred to the 125-grain Magnum as "the magic bullet." Texas state troopers said they missed the "lightning bolt effect" of these rounds after they went to .45s, which made the troopers eager to adopt the .357 SIG with similar ballistics.
Personally, I could never see much difference between the Remington and the Federal in flesh, or for that matter, their Winchester and CCI counterparts. But there's no question: Ed Sanow was right when he called the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint .357 Magnum the "king of the street." It delivered a destruction cone optimized for erect bipeds, which is why it outperformed much more potent hunting rounds such as the .41 and .44 Magnum when used in the anti-personnel function. The bigger Magnums frequently spent a lot of their energy exiting the offender's body and looking for a baby carriage on the other side. The 125-grain .357 dumped all its energy in a massively wide path between the front and the back of the offender's torso. Lighter .357 rounds might not go deep enough, and heavier ones often overpenetrated, but the 125-grain hollowpoint was ideal for its purpose at .357 Magnum velocity. When in doubt: 125-grain Remington or Federal semi-jacketed hollowpoint."
-Massad Ayoob
Leon Phelps
New member
6shooter,
What is the source of your information for this proclamation?
Regards,
Leon Phelps
What is the source of your information for this proclamation?
Regards,
Leon Phelps
Leon Phelps
New member
Jelly,
There were a lot of very compelling sentences in your post; however, I saw no citations. Specifically, I would love to read anything coming from any law enforcement agency that referred to any bullet as being "magic." And where in God's name did you come up with the .357 Magnum out performing the .41 & .44 mags? You actually have sources for this? I have not seen research on documented uses of either of these big bores in gunfights, but apparently you have. Can you please tell me where I can be so enlightened?
I realize there are God knows how many people who believe the .357 Magnum possess powers bordering on mystical; however, scientific testing does not support this hypothesis. Moreover, your "enery dump" theory is again refuted by scientific facts. "Energy dump" does not incapacitate; it is destruction of vital organs causing a drop in blood pressure that does the trick! Also, CNS hits can produce lightening-like termination of gunfights. But whatever the hell "energy dump" might be, it is not a scientifically sound theory. All else being equal, I would much prefer a through-and-through wound to whatever an "energy dump" might produce nothwithstanding safety concerns.
Finally, and I do not want to transition this thread into a M&S debate, but Sanow, et al, have refused to divulge their "research" methodology supporting validation. I know a lot of shooters revere M&S stuff as gospel; I prefer to go with the science as produced by the FBI & other credible research designs.
Oh, one more thing, sorry; some years ago I came across research that revealed the .357 Mag with 125 grain projectiles as actually being extremely inferior. Can anyone help me out the the possible origin of this research?
Regards,
Leon Phelps
There were a lot of very compelling sentences in your post; however, I saw no citations. Specifically, I would love to read anything coming from any law enforcement agency that referred to any bullet as being "magic." And where in God's name did you come up with the .357 Magnum out performing the .41 & .44 mags? You actually have sources for this? I have not seen research on documented uses of either of these big bores in gunfights, but apparently you have. Can you please tell me where I can be so enlightened?
I realize there are God knows how many people who believe the .357 Magnum possess powers bordering on mystical; however, scientific testing does not support this hypothesis. Moreover, your "enery dump" theory is again refuted by scientific facts. "Energy dump" does not incapacitate; it is destruction of vital organs causing a drop in blood pressure that does the trick! Also, CNS hits can produce lightening-like termination of gunfights. But whatever the hell "energy dump" might be, it is not a scientifically sound theory. All else being equal, I would much prefer a through-and-through wound to whatever an "energy dump" might produce nothwithstanding safety concerns.
Finally, and I do not want to transition this thread into a M&S debate, but Sanow, et al, have refused to divulge their "research" methodology supporting validation. I know a lot of shooters revere M&S stuff as gospel; I prefer to go with the science as produced by the FBI & other credible research designs.
Oh, one more thing, sorry; some years ago I came across research that revealed the .357 Mag with 125 grain projectiles as actually being extremely inferior. Can anyone help me out the the possible origin of this research?
Regards,
Leon Phelps
The only light I can shed on this topic is recalling over 30 years ago this debate was still raging -- .357 vs [name your caliber].
In the 70's, LAPD stopped allowing .357 Magnum ammo in duty guns, instead issuing a .38 Special +P load under a 146gr LSWC-HP (The "LA Man Stopper" load). At the time, too many failures occured with 125gr .357's, including failure of the projectile to expand in the target (posing a downrange risk the city found unacceptable).
The 146gr worked pretty well for about a year, as I recall, until one perp absorbed 4 hits without going down and a very practical Sgt. drilled him with a 12ga "00" buck at 12 feet. Perp was on PCP, of course, so that shouldn't have detracted from a good record, but the cops wanted their 125gr rounds back and got them - in .38 Special +P+ loads.
Fast Forward:
It's now 2005 and 30 years later we're still looking for that magic ".357" bullet. At least now we have Speer's Gold Dot-SB (Short barrel) design which is supposed to expand at lower velocities. And there's the Barnes Pure Copper bullet that expands at 800-900fps - almost the ideal .38 special/.45ACP velocity.
These advances in technology allow bullets to expand at lower velocities, like your favorite 2" or 3" CCW gun. The expanding bullets do cause more damage and are more likely to "slice n' dice" vitals, causing lots of bleeding and a drop in blood pressure. One shot stops? Only time will tell when we see some real shooting data that is carefully analyized and made available. But these rounds - Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Pure Copper HEX, et al do look very good.
I'm interested in hearing the outcomes of any incidents involving the Gold Dot, Golden Sabers or Pure Copper bullets. These look good in ballistic gel trials but we all know that ballistic gelatin has never been known to commit a felony.
In the meantime I'm using;
.38 Special - 129gr Federal Hydra Shoks or W-W 125gr Silvertips
.357 Magnum: 125gr W-W JHP or Federal 158gr JHPs
In the 70's, LAPD stopped allowing .357 Magnum ammo in duty guns, instead issuing a .38 Special +P load under a 146gr LSWC-HP (The "LA Man Stopper" load). At the time, too many failures occured with 125gr .357's, including failure of the projectile to expand in the target (posing a downrange risk the city found unacceptable).
The 146gr worked pretty well for about a year, as I recall, until one perp absorbed 4 hits without going down and a very practical Sgt. drilled him with a 12ga "00" buck at 12 feet. Perp was on PCP, of course, so that shouldn't have detracted from a good record, but the cops wanted their 125gr rounds back and got them - in .38 Special +P+ loads.
Fast Forward:
It's now 2005 and 30 years later we're still looking for that magic ".357" bullet. At least now we have Speer's Gold Dot-SB (Short barrel) design which is supposed to expand at lower velocities. And there's the Barnes Pure Copper bullet that expands at 800-900fps - almost the ideal .38 special/.45ACP velocity.
These advances in technology allow bullets to expand at lower velocities, like your favorite 2" or 3" CCW gun. The expanding bullets do cause more damage and are more likely to "slice n' dice" vitals, causing lots of bleeding and a drop in blood pressure. One shot stops? Only time will tell when we see some real shooting data that is carefully analyized and made available. But these rounds - Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Pure Copper HEX, et al do look very good.
I'm interested in hearing the outcomes of any incidents involving the Gold Dot, Golden Sabers or Pure Copper bullets. These look good in ballistic gel trials but we all know that ballistic gelatin has never been known to commit a felony.
In the meantime I'm using;
.38 Special - 129gr Federal Hydra Shoks or W-W 125gr Silvertips
.357 Magnum: 125gr W-W JHP or Federal 158gr JHPs
Blue Heeler
Moderator
Leon- Try this: www.answers.com/topic/357-magnum
Then you can use your search engine to see what other info you can find.
Then you can use your search engine to see what other info you can find.
Right now, I've got 2 SD rounds lined up for use with my 4" 686:
For Home Defense, I've got it loaded up with Speer .38 spl +P 125 gr GDHPs. I choose not to use .357 mag loads indoors in an attempt to reduce flash/bang and so that I can at least attempt to reduce the hazard of shooting through walls -- I live in a suburban area, there are neighbors all around. My next door neighbor has similar ammo loaded up in his snubby, apparently for the same reasons.
For hunting/field carry (potential of both 4 and 2 legged varmits), I've got some Georgia Arms .357 Mag 158 gr GDHP's. They call them +P's, even though there's no such rating standard in this round. I figure that there's no real reason to be concerned with flash/bang/shoot-through when in the field, so why not go full powered? BTW -- in Ga you have to use some sort of expanding bullet for hunting, hence no heavy SWC's in this role.
For Home Defense, I've got it loaded up with Speer .38 spl +P 125 gr GDHPs. I choose not to use .357 mag loads indoors in an attempt to reduce flash/bang and so that I can at least attempt to reduce the hazard of shooting through walls -- I live in a suburban area, there are neighbors all around. My next door neighbor has similar ammo loaded up in his snubby, apparently for the same reasons.
For hunting/field carry (potential of both 4 and 2 legged varmits), I've got some Georgia Arms .357 Mag 158 gr GDHP's. They call them +P's, even though there's no such rating standard in this round. I figure that there's no real reason to be concerned with flash/bang/shoot-through when in the field, so why not go full powered? BTW -- in Ga you have to use some sort of expanding bullet for hunting, hence no heavy SWC's in this role.
Leon Phelps
New member
Blue Heeler,
I did access the site, but found nothing that would support or refute Jelly's thesis.
Leon Phelps
I did access the site, but found nothing that would support or refute Jelly's thesis.
Leon Phelps