357 Magnum - "balanced ammo."

N

Nick_C_S

New member
The weather is getting warmer (here, at least) and so for the first time this year, I did some chronographing. The data yielded some interesting-to-me things worthy of several posts. This is the first one. . .

I post my fair share here on TFL; and often, I mention what I term as "balanced ammo." That is, ammunition that is properly tailored for the gun/application. It's a term I usually reserve for defense level ammo.

To get max velocity, it's easy to pack a case full of slow powder and let 'er rip. But unless the gun is a carbine, that would not be what I call balanced ammo. In a short barreled revolver especially, would this ammo have any real practical application? That would be a matter of opinion, of course. But in my book, the answer is no. Here's what I'm talking about . . .

I ran two 20 round samples of two different 125 grain JHP loadings (Speer UCHP #4013 specifically). The gun is a Smith 686, 4" barrel. Chronograph was set at four yards (the usual for me).

First loading: 8.8 grains of Unique; 1373 f/s.
Second loading: 17.0 grains of 2400; 1372 f/s. (550 magnum primer used for this one.)

As you can see, the average velocity between the two loadings were virtually the same. But - BUT - their shooting characterists bore no resemblance to one-another whatsoever. None. At all.

The Unique ammo shot quite tame and handled with ease. Hardly even seemed "magnum" in character.

The 2400 ammo launched a huge basketball+ sized bloom of flame, along with a huge, thrusting recoil.

Their behavior was completely different. And if I didn't have a chronograph, I would have assumed that the 2400 ammo was propelling the bullets at least 100 f/s faster - probably more.

Now make no mistake, I'll load more of the 2400's because every now and then, I like to experience a big recoiling round (not nearly as much as I used to though :p). They were fun. But I'd much rather use the Unique ammo for self-defense carry. (I carry factory ammo, for the record. I'm stating the above to make a point.) The Unique ammo was far more practical and "balanced" - as I say.

Just thought I'd share my experience. I needed to chronograph this ammo (and many others) today as a part of several load work ups. The two coming together today and having such close velocity numbers was just a coincidence.

I would like to hear the thoughts/opinions/experiences of others.

-Nick.
 
Nick, I think you know how I enjoy your posts and respect the things you do and write about. (Heh, sounds like a setup!)

Simply stated, it seems too hard for me to imagine what you're reporting. That seems like a LOT of velocity for that charge of Unique.

I know that you are a conscientious handloader and you have far more hands-on experience with the dreaded chronograph than I do.

I'll sum up my feelings with:
I'm glad it wasn't me doing the sake experiment because I wouldn't accept it, I'd question it endlessly and re-test multiple times.

I have read that "ejecta" is a part of the free recoil equation, but realistically... the difference in ejecta is 8 grains. By weight, I likely couldn't notice that weight.
 
I think there can be Tier I, II, and III level loads for any of the Magnums as well as big Rugers in 45 Colt. I would also extend that to the 38 Special, because some of the snubbies are so small and light weight that any common ammo makes it a little beast. Ironically, the only 38 I have that is stamped for +p is way too small and light to be fed such ammo, shot from my hands.

I think the three tiers correspond to small, medium, and large guns as well as light, moderate, and heavy weight guns. There is also a correlation in bullet weights with the stoutness of the loads that fire them and the guns that shoot them.

My range of bullets for 357 is 125, 158, and 180. The 38 Special gets 110, 125, and 158. My 45 Colts with a representative gun in each of three tiers get 200, 250, and 265 plus a box of 300 XTPs I have never opened.

When I go to the range, I start out easy, so there is a light, medium, and heavy level of recoil and shooting challenge there too.
 
That seems like a LOT of velocity for that charge of Unique.
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Sevens, it rather does to me too. It's a really spunky lot of Unique. I get into more detail about this on my post "Unique - differences between two lots." I believe this lot of Unique has a particularly fast burn rate. So although it propels the bullets really fast, it does so with a lot of pressure. This 8.8 grain loading was likely an over-pressure. Let me assure you that my charge weights were accurate and done so with the utmost of judicial patience (as usual). My chronograph readings were good too. I had perfect light conditions and it was giving consistent readings shot after shot.

as you discovered, slow powders don't improve things at all.
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Heh, well Hammerhead, I wouldn't say it was a "discovery" as I have been well aware of this for a decade or two. I post about it today because I ran into such an excellent straight across example of it with a chronograph to prove it. It was one of those "staring you right in the face" moments, so to speak.
 
Not to distract from the ideas of the original post, but my everyday load with 44 Mag is 17.0 gr Alliant 2400 under a 260 gr cast bullet.

Averages 1275 fps with my CED M2 chronograph at 15 ft.

I have loaded 18.0 gr A2400 with a Speer 125 gr bullet (a long time before the Gold Dot came out) as this was back in the mid 70s.

A work buddy of mine bought a M19 S&W and wanted to try some. The short barrel produced such a light show that he wanted something else to use. Plus it was rather noisy.

The Speer manual supported the load back then, but not any longer.
 
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The following quote contains load data exceeding current published data. So don't load it because it would be unwise and possibly dangerous to do so . . .

I have loaded 18.0 gr A2400 with a Speer 125 gr bullet
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Yes, the older Speer manuals had higher charge weights; particularly in 357/44 Mag. The current, #14, has 17.5 grains as max. I was at 17.0; but using a magnum primer. Even with the primer however, there were no signs of pressure. Primers weren't flat and there was no difficulty with case extraction at all. Most likely, the charge weight could go up. But I like it where it is just fine.

I am thoroughly convinced that the 2400 loading had a much lower peak pressure than the Unique loading.
 
1300 fps sounds good to me, I'm working on getting a good load going for 158 that just gets it into magnum territory without making itself obnoxious. Sure, it would be a good thing to eventually crank up the things to nucular level, but if I want to use that level of round for anything, it isn't going to be doing bullseyes. I can get a few boxes of full load rounds for a lot less trouble than putting together a useful full power load. By the time I bought a can of appropriate powder and three boxes of bullets, I could easily find three or four boxes of factory.
 
Real Gun said:
Nick's numbers correspond well to Speer's loading manual.
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...not by my Speer manual, or the Lyman. Especially outta a 4" revolver barrel. I agree with Sevens, that it seems to be substantial velocity from that charge of Unique. I am not discounting Nick's numbers tho. It is a curious phenomenon. I would want to redo the test confirming charge rates and chrono accuracy before writing it in stone. I tend to prefer faster powders with light for caliber bullets and the heavier the bullet, the slower the powder. This is where I see slower powders performing better. As with many of these posts, the mention of which load was more accurate never came up.
 
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