357 mag out of 2.5" J frame

S

Sharkbite

New member
In another thread someone is asking about better grips for their J frame in 357mag.

Does anyone have any REAL data on the effectiveness of 357 out of a short tube vs 38spl +P Vs std pressure 38spl?

I have a titanium J frame but i got it in 38spl cause the 357 one was just too much recoil.

I wondering if 357 really gives better velocity outta the shorter tubes or is it just wasted on mzl blast and recoil

Velocity numbers from 2.5" barrels would be great
 
Not for the recoil Sharkbite.

I've owned the TI versions to and wih .357s it's not worth it.

You can get a DPX Corbon 125gr JHP at 1300 from a 2.25 inch J barrel and while that is better than a 110 at maybe 1000 fps it's just to much to control.

I use an all steel 640-1 and Buffalo Bore DPX 'low flash low recoil' that gets it's 125gr slug at 1200 fps. And that is from an all steel gun!

Deaf
 
I bought the J frame to use as a back up. This one is even lighter then the scandium framed 357.

I dont think the 357 get you anything in added velocity with this short a barrel but im hoping someone with some actual numbers can chime in
 
I wondering if 357 really gives better velocity outta the shorter tubes or is it just wasted on mzl blast and recoil
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.357 does give higher velocities out of snubs than .38+P, but you have to ask yourself at what cost? It is true that out of a shorter barrel you do not gain the full potential of the .357 round, so in a sense it neuters it. There is also a great amount of recoil, muzzle flash, and noise. I fired off a single .357 round out of my old S&W model 60 without hearing protection about 3 years ago, and as a result I developed tinnitus in my left ear and it still rings to this day. With that said, out of snubs I prefer .38+P's, they allow for faster followup shots due to much less recoil, and without all the extra noise and muzzle flash.
 
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.357 DOES have better performance vs .38 regardless of whether it is a snub.

That said, unless I am carrying my J-frame during a woods walk (might need .357 mag to put an animal down), I prefer to carry .38+P

These Buffalo Bore .38+P LSWCHP (lead/semi wad cutter/Hollow point) put out 1,000fps (measured out of a 3" barrel, IIRC)


 
Unless one cherry picks the ammunition to compare the highest velocity .38 +P loadings to the mildest .357 Magnum loadings, then yes the .357 Magnum gives substantially higher velocity even from a short barrel. Confirmation of this can be found in Ballistics by the Inch's chronograph testing.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

Bear in mind when looking at BBTI's results that they measure their barrels in the same manner as one would a semi-auto barrel. Because of this, BBTI's 3" velocity is closer to what one would expect from a 2" revolver barrel.

Actually though, we really don't need chronograph velocities to tell us that the .357 is giving substantial higher velocities, Sir Isaac Newton figured it out centuries ago. Newton's Third Law tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If a .357 Magnum were really only producing the same velocity of the same weight .38 Special from the same gun, then their recoil should be roughly the same. If, however, you actually fire a .38 Special and .357 Magnum loading with the same bullet weight from the same short-barrel gun, the .357 Magnum will give you substantially more recoil. The only way that this can happen is if either the .357 Magnum is somehow adding a substantial amount of weight to the projectile (the extra powder does have some weight, but very little) or it is propelling the projectile at substantially higher velocity.

Now, whether or not the extra velocity of the .357 Magnum is worth the extra recoil and blast is more subjective. I personally think it is in a 20+ oz gun with large enough grips for me to get a full three-finger hold. In a lighter gun and/or one with smaller grips, however, the recoil of a full power .357 Magnum is too severe for me to be able to get through a satisfactory range session with and thus I stick with .38 +P in such guns.
 
Excellent post Webleymkv.

Another way to view it is from a standpoint of pressure. The 357 mag operates at substantially higher pressure. Pressure makes velocity, and thus, there is no substitute for it.

That said, 357 snubbie ammo should be tailored for short barrel use. Fast powders that develop pressure quickly are the best way to go. It may not necessarily yield the most muzzle velocity, but it will have less flash and recoil - which should be considered when selecting ammo for SD duty.

If you're not loading your own, Speer makes a great line of ammo designed for short barrels.
 
It's a myth that the .357 magnum doesn't give much velocity or energy vs a .38 special or .38 special +P out of snub nose guns. However, for most people and this includes me, I consider .38 special +P with the right load just fine for defensive use. Shooting the magnum round out of guns that have such short barrels and are typically very lightweight produces much more recoil and muzzle blast/flash/noise than I am willing to deal with.

YMMV.
 
I consider .38 special +P with the right load just fine for defensive use.
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I would have to agree - for me.

I don't carry a 357 snub, but if I did, it'd have good 38+P ammo in it. Either the Buffalo Bore pic'd above, or Speer's 135g GDHP SB. Plenty effective, but much more manageable (for me) than the full-house 357 stuff.
 
From 2 inch barrel Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP gives the .38 spl 1000 fps. I personally have chronoed that load at that velocity.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)

But..

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102
3 inch S&W J frame 158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps <-- yes almost 1400 fps!

So yes a .357 magnum is more powerful even from shorter barrels. Trade off is huge blast and recoil is increased.

If I packed my 3 inch 65 or 2 1/2 66 I'd use the BB .38 158gr LSWHP load. I'd only use that full 158gr JHP magnum load out of a 4 inch N frame or GP100.

Deaf
 
I have only shot a few 357 rounds from my model 60. I found them stout. I would guess the buffalo bore would be stout as well
 
Here are some .38 Special rounds and cylinder full of .357, that I personally chronographed a year or so ago.

S&W M36 Chief's Special, 3" barrel:
Remington Golden Saber 125 gr JHP 935 fps​
Federal Hydra 129 gr JHP 951 fps​
Remington 125 JHP 921 fps​

S&W M60 .357, 3" barrel:
Remington 125 JHP 1285 fps​

And here's a pic of some of the above, shot into a swimming pool from my wife's S&W M637, with chrono readings below the bullets... Based on the results in this pic, we both carry Remington GS 125's...When I've got the M60 strapped on, I carry Federal's 125 gr FTX round (advertised at 1500 fps LOL)...

And for the record, my 3" M60 .357 is manageable with 125 Hornady's, but a single cylinder full is all the 'fun' I'm capable of 'enjoying' in a single afternoon. For defense use, it's justified, recoil and blast are memorable, but nothing like 158 gr full house loads. For those big slugs, you'd better have a bone crushing grip on the gun...the recoil can only be described as: HEROIC!!



HTH's Rod

 
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The snubnose makes it lost LOTs of power

I did a post before on comparing the snubnose revolver in .357 vs a 9mm subcompact. The snubnose makes the .357 lose A LOT of power, but to answer your question: A 357 mag in a snub nose will still always be better than a .38 special +P in the same snubnose. Always. Sure, the 357 will have more recoil, muzzleflash, etc, but the 357 in a snub will beat a .38 special+P in a snub. Now is the gains worth it for the huge increase in recoil and muzzle flash? That's up for you to decide. Although the fact is that a .357 really loses a lot of power out of a snub nose barrel, much more than people realize. It really shines in a full-size barrel. I listed the numbers below, you can ignore the 9mm comparision as I just copied and pasted from an old post. Just read the parts about the 357 and it's numbers coming out of a snub-nose barrel and you'll realize it's losing a lot of power -- although still not losing enough power to make the .38 special +P better.

Numbers:

Round-----Barrel----Energy(ft-lb)-----Velocity(ft/s)
.357 Mag --- 2" ---- 250-300 --------- 900-1000 (2.5 inch is HERE)
.357 Mag --- 3" ---- 410-440 -------- 1150-1250
9mm ------- 3" ---- 250-280 --------- 980-1050
9mm +P ---- 3" ---- 375-400 -------- 1150-1250 (Glock 26 is HERE)

So comparing the J-Frame 2 inch barrel .357 Snub vs the small GLOCK 26 9mm+P we get these numbers:
--J-Frame revolver: average Velocity is 900 too 1000 FPS and 250 to 300 energy.
--Glock 26: average Velocity is 1150 to 1250 and 375 to 400 energy.
The Glock will have less recoil, more rounds, has superior FPS speed, and superior FT/energy pounds produced.. Again, reinforcing that you need a LARGER barrel if you want the 357 to perform better.

More numbers:

357 MAGNUM in Snub-Nose
--Ruger SP101 .357 MAGNUM, 110gr, JHP. Velocity: 1,208 fps. Ft-pounds energy = 356.
--Taurus snub nose, 125 grain, .357 MAGNUM, JHP. Velocity: 1,143 fps. Ft-pounds of energy: 363
VS
--Glock 26, 124 grain. Velocity:1,182 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 394
--Glock 19, 124 grain. Velocity: 1,238 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 433

Outcome: The Glock 19 has more FPS and has around 80 more FT-pounds of energy than the snub nose .357 does than both the two different revolvers have and in two different revolver loadings. Again, the 357 losing due to it's small snub nose barrel

Here are some heavier loads for the 357, and they really lose FPS heavily due to small barrel size:

--Taurus 617, .357 MAGNUM, 180 grain, JHP. Velocity: 1,023 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 418
--S&W 686, .357 MAGNUM, 180 JHP. Velocity: 1,042 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 434
VS
--Glock 19, 9mm +P, 115 grain. Velocity: 1415. FT-pounds energy: 511.
--Glock 19, 9mm +P+, 115 grain. Velocity: 1400. Ft-pounds energy: 500

Outcome: Glock 9mm is going around 400 FPS faster, and generates almost a 100 ft-pounds of energy more. Although the 9mm loads are a lot lighter loads, even the heavier 124 grain standard 9mm loads where going FASTER than the .357 nose nose loads are. Again, showing that in the snub-nose small barrel the 357 is losing major power in FPS and ft-pounds of energy produced. Not to mention the heavy loads out of a snub nose would generate lots of recoil and muzzle flash. These numbers show the .357 magnum really isn't meant for snub-nosed revolers.
Sure, a .357 magnum even out of a snub nose will almost ALWAYS in general be better than a .38 special +P, but the .357 mag in a snub nose revolver simply losses too much power by being restricted to a small snub nose barrel size. It's numbers for the 357 magnum in a snub nose are below that of a subcompact 9mm Glock 26 or Glock 19, and in some cases the snub nose numbers is extremely low due the barrel size shaving off literally hundreds of FPS and ft-pounds of energy.

The conclusion: The .357 mag loses a lot of power being fired from Snub-Nose revolver, and produces a lot less FPS and ft-pounds of energy than 9mm produces in a subcompact model. Although the .357 mag is still always going to be better than .38 special +P fired from the same sized barrel. Sure, the gains from a 357 mag vs a .38 special +P in a 2 inch barrel might be considered small by some people, but the fact is the 357 mag will still outperform a .38 special +P basically every-time. ALTHOUGH if you want to bring out the power of the .357, then you simply need a larger barrel.
 
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Personally, I considered a Smith and Wesson M&P340 over a Model 642 for about ten minutes before I realized something...

I knew for a fact that the .357 capability wasn't worth the .357 consequences in terms of blast/flash and recoil that slows down follow up shots. Not when .38 special +P can produce excellent results with the right loads with much less nastiness for the shooter.
 
I personally don't see the "huge recoil" of the 357mag to be an issue whatsoever in a proper platform.
Previously, I owned an SP101 3", then a S&W Model 19 2.5"...and currently own a GP100 3". I've shot factory full-powered loads in all of them. Fast DA is no problem at combat ranges with any of them. Even the snub Model 19, which I mainly shot with the original magna grips and a Tyler T-grip.
As for the "flash bang" effect...Sure, it will ring your chimes while saving your life...and the disorientation will be more on the bad guys side. I know what's coming out of that muzzle, he doesn't.
 
I owned an SP101 3", then a S&W Model 19 2.5"...and currently own a GP100 3".
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And these are nice guns. Also what they are, are essentially short barrel versions of mid size guns. They are (slightly, at least) larger and heavier than the smallest guns like the Chief Special, etc. A 2.5" K frame is a different gun than a 2.5" J frame, and clearly feels like it in most people's hands.
 
I personally don't see the "huge recoil" of the 357mag to be an issue whatsoever in a proper platform.
Previously, I owned an SP101 3", then a S&W Model 19 2.5"...and currently own a GP100 3". I've shot factory full-powered loads in all of them. Fast DA is no problem at combat ranges with any of them. Even the snub Model 19, which I mainly shot with the original magna grips and a Tyler T-grip.
As for the "flash bang" effect...Sure, it will ring your chimes while saving your life...and the disorientation will be more on the bad guys side. I know what's coming out of that muzzle, he doesn't.
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In my case I was in the market for a lightweight, pocket sized revolver. The guns you are describing are both all steel with heavier frames to begin with and hence have more weight to reduce recoil. Shooting a S&W M&P 340 scandium frame J-frame that weighs 13.3 oz unloaded with magnum loads is a much different experience than shooting a 3" GP-100 that weighs some 35 oz or so!
 
Josh17, where did you get your velocity figures? The reason I ask is that they are a good bit lower than what I typically see from chronograph tests of .357 Magnum snubs (the only .357 Magnum ammo I've ever seen do only 900fps is very light loaded "Cowboy Action" ammo). For example, the late Steve Camp was able to get 1100+fps from a 2 1/2" barrel with both 145gr and 158gr .357 Magnum loads.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/First%20Shots%20with%20S&W%20Model%2066%20dash%202.htm

And over 1200fps with a full-power Remington 125gr .357 load from another 2 1/2" gun.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

Now, the 110gr Winchester load you list from an SP101 is actually a rather light load for a .357 Magnum as it advertised at only 1295fps from a 4" barrel. Also, you didn't specify exactly which 125gr .357 Magnum loading the velocity quoted for the Taurus is. This leads me to wonder if either it was one of the lighter loadings like Remington's 125gr Golden Saber (advertised at 1220fps from a 4" barrel) or if perhaps the gun in question had an overly large barrel-to-cylinder gap.
 
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