32sl (self loader) ??
- Thread starter padd54
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Jim Watson
New member
I don't think the .32 WSL has a parent case. The carbine is based on it, but not very closely. I think I'd just knuckle under and pay for some Buffalo Arms brass. Maybe they make it by turning the rims off of .32-20 or swaging the head of a .30 carbine in a hydraulic press.
Found this site, I am not sure if this is just a box or if brass or rounds in them.
http://www.rtgammo.com/obsolamm.html
In my old "Cartridges of the World" (2nd Ed) It refers to the .32 S-L as the #1 candidate for the title of the "World's Most Useless Centerfire Rifle Cartridge"
I believe my 10th ed. calls it the most useless
That in itself would make the rifle you have more of a treasure if it were mine.
In the writeup it lists it's high ammunition cost but also listed it as being not well suited for reloading.
The 32 had a sister cartridge also witch was the .35 SL introduced in 1906 and discontinued in 1920.
It say,s also that the .32 SL was (probably) the prototype of the .30 U.S. Carbine cartridge.
I have one of them in my small cartridge collection.
Load data,
Bullet ------------Powder/gr.--------- MV-------ME
165 -------------2400--12.0 -------1450-------775
165------------- 4227--12.5--------1440-------760 Dup. fact. ballistics
165------------- FL-----------------1400-------760 200 yd. MRT = 11.9"
http://www.rtgammo.com/obsolamm.html
In my old "Cartridges of the World" (2nd Ed) It refers to the .32 S-L as the #1 candidate for the title of the "World's Most Useless Centerfire Rifle Cartridge"
I believe my 10th ed. calls it the most useless
That in itself would make the rifle you have more of a treasure if it were mine.
In the writeup it lists it's high ammunition cost but also listed it as being not well suited for reloading.
The 32 had a sister cartridge also witch was the .35 SL introduced in 1906 and discontinued in 1920.
It say,s also that the .32 SL was (probably) the prototype of the .30 U.S. Carbine cartridge.
I have one of them in my small cartridge collection.
Load data,
Bullet ------------Powder/gr.--------- MV-------ME
165 -------------2400--12.0 -------1450-------775
165------------- 4227--12.5--------1440-------760 Dup. fact. ballistics
165------------- FL-----------------1400-------760 200 yd. MRT = 11.9"
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There seems little doubt that the .32 SL cartridge was the basis for the .30 Carbine round. The Army said the cartridge was to be .30, but similar to the .32 SL, and the .32 SL was repeatedly mentioned in development of the .30 carbine. In fact, the first .30 Carbine cases were made by turning down the rim of the semi-rimmed .32 SL case and sizing to a .30 bullet. Early WRA cases were marked ".30 SL", some Remington cases had the .32 SLR bunter altered to "3 SL" and Western just used their .32 SLR marking. Those cases, needless to say, are among the rarest in cartridge collecting.
FWIW, the .35 SL was not worth much, either. It was introduced with the Winchester Model 1905 but the rifle was soon discontinued and replaced with the Model 1907 in .351 SL, a somewhat better round.
The reason for being of those cartridges was Winchester's desire to compete with the Remington line of Browning-designed autoloading rifles. But the Remingtons were long recoil, locked breech guns, capable of handling some reasonably powerful rounds, where Winchester's autoloaders were straight blowback, requiring a heavy weight in the foreend. Nonetheless, Winchester used two of Remington's most popular calibers, .32 and .35, probably hoping that customers would think the Winchester rifles fired the .32 Remington and .35 Remington which, of course, they didn't.
Winchester's later .401 was reasonably poweful, but because it too was blowback, it was pretty heavy and a bit awkward. (TR reportedly liked it!)
Jim
FWIW, the .35 SL was not worth much, either. It was introduced with the Winchester Model 1905 but the rifle was soon discontinued and replaced with the Model 1907 in .351 SL, a somewhat better round.
The reason for being of those cartridges was Winchester's desire to compete with the Remington line of Browning-designed autoloading rifles. But the Remingtons were long recoil, locked breech guns, capable of handling some reasonably powerful rounds, where Winchester's autoloaders were straight blowback, requiring a heavy weight in the foreend. Nonetheless, Winchester used two of Remington's most popular calibers, .32 and .35, probably hoping that customers would think the Winchester rifles fired the .32 Remington and .35 Remington which, of course, they didn't.
Winchester's later .401 was reasonably poweful, but because it too was blowback, it was pretty heavy and a bit awkward. (TR reportedly liked it!)
Jim
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Jim Watson
New member
It is easy to dismiss the old WSLs but their ballistics are similar to the various pistol caliber carbines now popular.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The primary reasons the .32 and .35 WSL were considered to be worthless are:
Neither cartridge was really powerful enough for medium game.
Neither rifle was really accurate enough for small game.
The cartridges were too expensive for casual shooting.
The rifles were heavy and pretty poorly balanced.
The .351 significantly increased the power of the .35, and the .401 was powerful enough that it was a decent short-range medium game rifle.
Even so, the .401 died a fairly quick death due to limited popularity, while the only reason the .351 made it (sort of) was that it was popular with police.
What I never really understood is why the US Gov't insisted on .30 cal. for the carbine round. Had they gone with a slightly souped up .351 it would have made for a FAR more effective round.
Neither cartridge was really powerful enough for medium game.
Neither rifle was really accurate enough for small game.
The cartridges were too expensive for casual shooting.
The rifles were heavy and pretty poorly balanced.
The .351 significantly increased the power of the .35, and the .401 was powerful enough that it was a decent short-range medium game rifle.
Even so, the .401 died a fairly quick death due to limited popularity, while the only reason the .351 made it (sort of) was that it was popular with police.
What I never really understood is why the US Gov't insisted on .30 cal. for the carbine round. Had they gone with a slightly souped up .351 it would have made for a FAR more effective round.
I think one big drawback was the gawdawful shuffle shuffle kerthunk when they were fired. That big weight in the forend really changed the balance rapidly. It was a bit like the M3 SMG with its heavy bolt, but the WSL rifle bolts were even heavier since they didn't have the advantage of advance primer ignition to help keep the bolt weight down. I never fired the Model 1910 in .401, but it must have been something else!
The Model 1907 in .351 was pretty popular with police and prison guards for a long time, because it was semi-auto and less expensive than the Remington Model 8/81. During the anti-war riots in D.C., when "non-violent" protesters were bombing and terrorizing, I remember a GSA guard in the building where I worked carrying a double armload of those guns. I wanted to make him an offer but I didn't think he would have a sense of humor.
Mike, FWIW, the government wanted .30 for the carbine with the idea that tooling was readily available for .30 barrels, where a different caliber would require new tooling, plus experiments with rifling twist, new cleaning material, etc. They might even have had the idea of making carbine barrels out of worn/reject rifle barrels, as the Russians were known to be doing with their SMGs.
Jim
The Model 1907 in .351 was pretty popular with police and prison guards for a long time, because it was semi-auto and less expensive than the Remington Model 8/81. During the anti-war riots in D.C., when "non-violent" protesters were bombing and terrorizing, I remember a GSA guard in the building where I worked carrying a double armload of those guns. I wanted to make him an offer but I didn't think he would have a sense of humor.
Mike, FWIW, the government wanted .30 for the carbine with the idea that tooling was readily available for .30 barrels, where a different caliber would require new tooling, plus experiments with rifling twist, new cleaning material, etc. They might even have had the idea of making carbine barrels out of worn/reject rifle barrels, as the Russians were known to be doing with their SMGs.
Jim
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Don't get me wrong, I know exactly why the gov't mandated a .30 caliber cartridge for the carbine.
I just don't really understand the rational. In retrospect, VERY little was saved by making the caliber common with the Garand.
All available tooling was quickly taken up with production of the Garand, so new tooling had to be obtained.
Experiments with rifling twist DID have to be conducted, as the .30 Carbine and the .30 Garand do not have the same twist (1 in 20, vs 1 in 10).
But that was Winchester's issue to deal with as they designed the winning rifle and also developed the cartridge for it.
If anything, it was a case of "eh, .30's good enough for cooks and truck drivers..."
I just don't really understand the rational. In retrospect, VERY little was saved by making the caliber common with the Garand.
All available tooling was quickly taken up with production of the Garand, so new tooling had to be obtained.
Experiments with rifling twist DID have to be conducted, as the .30 Carbine and the .30 Garand do not have the same twist (1 in 20, vs 1 in 10).
But that was Winchester's issue to deal with as they designed the winning rifle and also developed the cartridge for it.
If anything, it was a case of "eh, .30's good enough for cooks and truck drivers..."
hickstick_10
New member
http://www.gunbroker.com/
Go to this site and look for closed auctions (ones that that sold to a high bidder) on that model of rifle
Jim Watson
New member
Didn't the Frenchies look at a .346 derivative of the .351 in or shortly before WW I? Or maybe .346" = 8.8mm was just the Continental equivalent of the .351's bore diameter.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The French married a .351 casing to an 8mm Balle D bullet for the Lebel rifle, which was .323 to .330 diameter, depending on the manufacturer.
It was called the 8mm Riboliet, or something like that.
The case ended up being slightly necked down.
Overall, a failure.
It was called the 8mm Riboliet, or something like that.
The case ended up being slightly necked down.
Overall, a failure.
Mike, you make good points and use common sense. But I doubt you have ever been in a meeting where military folks were hashing out what they wanted. If something sounds reasonable, it is likely to be put down as a "requirement" even if it turns out in retrospect to be idiocy.
Remember also, that they wanted a short, light weapon to replace the pistol for people who had other things to do than shoot the enemy. While it was less compact than a pistol, there is no question in my mind that it is a lot easier to hit something with the carbine than with a pistol.
One of my favorite "it sounded good when he briefed the generals" items was the famous "Pedersen device." In theory, it sounded great; in the real war on the Western Front, troops using it as planned would have been slaughtered. I think Pedersen must have been one helluva salesman, for later he got the army to adopt his .276 as the standard caliber, which would have made billions of rounds of ammunition worthless and saddled the U.S. with an underpowered rifle in WWII.
Jim
Remember also, that they wanted a short, light weapon to replace the pistol for people who had other things to do than shoot the enemy. While it was less compact than a pistol, there is no question in my mind that it is a lot easier to hit something with the carbine than with a pistol.
One of my favorite "it sounded good when he briefed the generals" items was the famous "Pedersen device." In theory, it sounded great; in the real war on the Western Front, troops using it as planned would have been slaughtered. I think Pedersen must have been one helluva salesman, for later he got the army to adopt his .276 as the standard caliber, which would have made billions of rounds of ammunition worthless and saddled the U.S. with an underpowered rifle in WWII.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
"But I doubt you have ever been in a meeting where military folks were hashing out what they wanted."
Think again.
"Remember also, that they wanted a short, light weapon to replace the pistol for people who had other things to do than shoot the enemy."
Yes, I alluded to that. Had the .351, or a souped up version of the .351 been adopted, the resultant carbine wouldn't have been much, if any, larger, heavier, or bulkier than what became the M1 carbine. It would only have been a bit more capable.
"which would have made billions of rounds of ammunition worthless
Which is why MacArthur put the kaibosh on the proposed caliber change.
"and saddled the U.S. with an underpowered rifle in WWII."
Far less clear. As opposed to what? It was realized even back then that the old standard military rifle rounds, .30+ caliber and firing heavy bullets at 2,500 to 2,900 fps, were really overpowered for the kind of warfare that was developing.
Would the .276 have been underpowered? Compared to the extant military rifles cartridges of the day, yes, it was quite underpowered.
But, compared to actual battlefield requirements and experiences? I don't think so. Ballistically it would have been pretty close to the 7.35 Carcano round, and from all reports the 7.35 Carcano was a quite capable round in the limited fighting that it saw before the Italians had to pull the rifles back and convert them to 6.5 due to logistics issues.
In fact, the .276 Pedersen round was on par with military loadings of the 7x57 Mauser cartridge, which had made quite an impression on US troops during the Spanish American War.
Remember that the 7.92x33 Kurz round was, compared to the rifle calibers of the day, tremendously underpowered, yet the German experience with it was so positive that it, and the Stg. 44, were eventually intended to replace the K98k in active service except for very specialized roles like long-range sniping.
Probably the proper way of looking at this is that every major combatant in WW II went into the war with a main battle rifle cartridge that was significantly more powerful than what was actually needed. In reality, a waste of critical raw materials (copper and lead) and propellant.
Think again.
"Remember also, that they wanted a short, light weapon to replace the pistol for people who had other things to do than shoot the enemy."
Yes, I alluded to that. Had the .351, or a souped up version of the .351 been adopted, the resultant carbine wouldn't have been much, if any, larger, heavier, or bulkier than what became the M1 carbine. It would only have been a bit more capable.
"which would have made billions of rounds of ammunition worthless
Which is why MacArthur put the kaibosh on the proposed caliber change.
"and saddled the U.S. with an underpowered rifle in WWII."
Far less clear. As opposed to what? It was realized even back then that the old standard military rifle rounds, .30+ caliber and firing heavy bullets at 2,500 to 2,900 fps, were really overpowered for the kind of warfare that was developing.
Would the .276 have been underpowered? Compared to the extant military rifles cartridges of the day, yes, it was quite underpowered.
But, compared to actual battlefield requirements and experiences? I don't think so. Ballistically it would have been pretty close to the 7.35 Carcano round, and from all reports the 7.35 Carcano was a quite capable round in the limited fighting that it saw before the Italians had to pull the rifles back and convert them to 6.5 due to logistics issues.
In fact, the .276 Pedersen round was on par with military loadings of the 7x57 Mauser cartridge, which had made quite an impression on US troops during the Spanish American War.
Remember that the 7.92x33 Kurz round was, compared to the rifle calibers of the day, tremendously underpowered, yet the German experience with it was so positive that it, and the Stg. 44, were eventually intended to replace the K98k in active service except for very specialized roles like long-range sniping.
Probably the proper way of looking at this is that every major combatant in WW II went into the war with a main battle rifle cartridge that was significantly more powerful than what was actually needed. In reality, a waste of critical raw materials (copper and lead) and propellant.
Jim Watson
New member
Baloney.
It would have just meant we would have had a rifle caliber and a machine gun caliber for a while. No different from a dozen other armies.
The only question in my mind is whether a slightly lighter rifle round like the .276 would have made the M1 carbine and ITS dedicated ammo unnecessary. Maybe we would have had a true carbine - a shorter weapon firing the rifle cartridge - and more submachine guns. Like a dozen other armies.
While I think "Cartridges of the World" is a very valuable reference work, the late author was very critical of any cartridge that he didn't think was good for hunting. But my father, who served in the infantry in Italy in WWII, and who also was a prisoner of war for a year for his trouble, had a low opinion of the M1 carbine. I've never fired one myself but I've pointed out before how so many people think it to be so underpowered, yet an equal number think the .30 Tokarev to be almost a wonder weapon, able to pierce body armor, excellent in submachine guns and smells good when being fired.
They could have tried making a carbine in .45 ACP, street legal ones actually being made for a while after the war as semi-auto versions of something, perhaps a Reising, which only outweighs an M1 carbine by about a pound. An M1 rifle outweighs an M1 carbine by four pounds.
They could have tried making a carbine in .45 ACP, street legal ones actually being made for a while after the war as semi-auto versions of something, perhaps a Reising, which only outweighs an M1 carbine by about a pound. An M1 rifle outweighs an M1 carbine by four pounds.
Mike, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but remember in WWI, trenches didn't just consist of a hole in the ground. There were barricades, head logs, machinegun shields, and all the other means of protecting folks who needed to keep an eye on the enemy. And full power ammo (8mm, .30-'06) would penetrate a lot of that, where it is doubtful the .276 would have. Further, the .276 would have been badly outranged by the 8mm Mauser, never a good thing, and devastating to morale ("They can hit us, and our rifles won't shoot far enough to hurt them." We can imagine the newspaper headlines!).
The fact is that Pedersen had invented a rifle that wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to work, with the .30-'06, so rather than going back to the drawing board, and with visions of millions in royalties dancing in his head, he talked the Army into accepting a cartridge that his rifle would work with.
The .276 argument was never really about a suitable round for a future war (it never is, crystal balls being scarce), nor was the Pedersen device about a serious weapon for advancing troops; both really were about a very persuasive inventor and super salesman.
Jim
The fact is that Pedersen had invented a rifle that wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to work, with the .30-'06, so rather than going back to the drawing board, and with visions of millions in royalties dancing in his head, he talked the Army into accepting a cartridge that his rifle would work with.
The .276 argument was never really about a suitable round for a future war (it never is, crystal balls being scarce), nor was the Pedersen device about a serious weapon for advancing troops; both really were about a very persuasive inventor and super salesman.
Jim
Jim Watson
New member
But the .276 was developed after WW I. WW II was more fluid as witness the development of the assault rifle by the Germans, and all the SMGs used by various armies who lacked our auto rifles.
You could make a case that McArthur was preparing to fight the previous war.
You could also make a case that he was worried about peacetime War Department budgets, too.
You could make a case that McArthur was preparing to fight the previous war.
You could also make a case that he was worried about peacetime War Department budgets, too.