I realize this topic has been hit about three times on this forum (I searched the archives all the way back), but I didn't quite find what I wanted to know. I am looking at getting a nice long distance rifle (Sako 75 Stainless Synthetic Mmm...) and planning on going with the .308 until I talked with a guy at the range on Saturday. He was shooting a 7mm/08 and told me how it could outshoot a .308 in an identical grain bullet because it had a lower ballistic coefficient and how it kicked less than the 30 caliber rifles. I am interested in a rifle that kicks less and shoots flatter, faster and further, but is that true of the 7mm.08 round? We can skip the surplus ammo issue here, If I go with the 7mm.08 I am planning to reload.
.308 vs 7mm.08
- Thread starter Iskatel
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Most 7mm bullets have a higher ballistic coefficient than 30-caliber bullets of similar weight. They therefore retain their velocity better at longer distances.
For a given velocity and a given weight of rifle, lighter bullets make for less recoil. In general, the common bullet-weight for the 7mm is around 130 to 140 grains; for 30-caliber cartridges, it runs 150 to 180 grains.
A lighter bullet going faster will have a flatter trajectory. (It's not gonna go further in terms of absolute distance; even if it did, that's beside any useful point, anyway.) The 7mm-08 would be a better varmint gun than a .308 because of the light bullets, low recoil, flat trajectory "thing".
7mm cartridges of this range of power have been used for deer hunting for around a century...
Hope this helps,
Art
For a given velocity and a given weight of rifle, lighter bullets make for less recoil. In general, the common bullet-weight for the 7mm is around 130 to 140 grains; for 30-caliber cartridges, it runs 150 to 180 grains.
A lighter bullet going faster will have a flatter trajectory. (It's not gonna go further in terms of absolute distance; even if it did, that's beside any useful point, anyway.) The 7mm-08 would be a better varmint gun than a .308 because of the light bullets, low recoil, flat trajectory "thing".
7mm cartridges of this range of power have been used for deer hunting for around a century...
Hope this helps,
Art
Thanks Art, that pretty much confirms what the guy at the range was telling me.
What advantages do you think there are to the 308, though? Is the 7mm still going to be able to take big stuff (i.e. elk, mule deer, etc.) and will lose it's power at greater distance, 500-600 yds?
Dan
BTW I love this forum! This is the first time I have posted because I can usually find everything I want to know by just searching.
What advantages do you think there are to the 308, though? Is the 7mm still going to be able to take big stuff (i.e. elk, mule deer, etc.) and will lose it's power at greater distance, 500-600 yds?
Dan
BTW I love this forum! This is the first time I have posted because I can usually find everything I want to know by just searching.
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
Biggest advantage for the 308 is the projectile is the most studied, ballistically and aerodynamically, of the 20th century. Twist rates and such for different weights, powders, and it has taken most, if not all the accuracy records away from the 30-06. The average shooter is not going to see any marked difference, but the pro's do. When you are shooting at long distance, its pretty much accepted that to do 1000 yards that you will want your projectile to exit near 3000 fps in order to still be supersonic at that distance. True, the 7MM08 is going to be a softer kicker, but you are not going to hit as hard at the other end, either. No free lunch here.
EchoFiveMike
New member
7mm-08 is one of my favorite calibers. it is a more efficient round than the 308 IMO. mainly due to the increased BC and sectional density over the 308 caliber bullet. The 7-08 will have more energy at extremely long ranges due to it's higher BC's, howver this is only really important to snipers and long range marksman. Either 308 w/175 MK's or 7-08 with 168MK's or 162 A-max's will have more then enough power to kill humans at 1000yds. Either the 308 or the 7mm-08 is enough for mulies, and capable of taking elk with good bullets(Nosler Partitions, Barnes X, Swift's, etc) A good 160gn 7mm Partition is more than enough for elk out to about 300yds, more if you are an excellent shot. 175's will work well also, and they penetrate better than 180gn 308's due to bettr sectional density. I would recommend the 7-08 as the better cartridge, but either would be adequate for your needs. recoil is basically a wash IMO given equal bullet weights. The fact that lighter bullets can be used effectively in the 7-08 makes that the winner, I guess. 140's for deer, 160 premiums or 175's for elk. Semper Fidelis....Ken M
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
When you start talking about ranges beyond some 300 yards, you're then getting into the area of "clean kill" vs. "kill". Morals and ethics enter the picture.
You can hit a deer or elk in the guts at 600 yards and he'll die. Most any cartridge which will reach that far will do this. But I think all of us here agree that it's wrong to do that.
The average shooter with the typical hunting rifle can fairly easily hit the heart area of a deer-sized animal out to 200 yards or so. The energy-level of the typical "deer" cartridge will do quite well out to 300 or 400 yards, if it's a hit to the heart or spine.
At some point, a higher degree of skill is needed, plus a cartridge which will deliver as much energy to the target out beyond 400 yards as other cartridges do at, say, 200 or 300 yards.
Personally, I would not be afraid to use the 7mm-08 on an elk, but I would be more judicious about the range and the placement of the shot than might be the case with something like a .300 WinMag, etc. "Courtesy to the elk", if you will. Since the 7mm-08 is about the same as a .270, it's gotta be a great deer cartridge. With the 100-grain range of bullet, it's a better varmint cartridge than a 30-caliber.
A Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08 seems like a good idea.
FWIW, Art
You can hit a deer or elk in the guts at 600 yards and he'll die. Most any cartridge which will reach that far will do this. But I think all of us here agree that it's wrong to do that.
The average shooter with the typical hunting rifle can fairly easily hit the heart area of a deer-sized animal out to 200 yards or so. The energy-level of the typical "deer" cartridge will do quite well out to 300 or 400 yards, if it's a hit to the heart or spine.
At some point, a higher degree of skill is needed, plus a cartridge which will deliver as much energy to the target out beyond 400 yards as other cartridges do at, say, 200 or 300 yards.
Personally, I would not be afraid to use the 7mm-08 on an elk, but I would be more judicious about the range and the placement of the shot than might be the case with something like a .300 WinMag, etc. "Courtesy to the elk", if you will. Since the 7mm-08 is about the same as a .270, it's gotta be a great deer cartridge. With the 100-grain range of bullet, it's a better varmint cartridge than a 30-caliber.
A Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08 seems like a good idea.
FWIW, Art
Hey Iskatel, I just happen to have both a 7mm-08Rem and a 308Win. Can't remember just how long I've had a short-case 30cal rifle, but I started with a 300Sav. All are just outstanding cartridges, very efficient and very accurate.
A decade or so ago, it would have been real easy to select the 308Win as the "pick of the litter" concerning accuracy. But the good folks that manufacture our bullets (ALL of them) have made great improvements in the consistency of their manufacturing techniques. We all reap the benefits of their efforts.
So, if you are just starting out on this project, the 7mm-08 might work just as well for you as the 308Win. Likewise, I hear all kinds of good things about the 260Rem and it could possibly be another option for you to ponder over.
Here is my recommendation: Get a couple of Component Manufacturers Reloading Manuals and look them over closely. There is a lot more information in them than just how much powder to dump in. For example, the Speer Manuals have a fine External Ballistics table in the back of their Manuals which you can use to do "What If I use xxx bullet instead of xxx bullet?" question and answer sessions for yourself. It is one of the very best ways to get a good handle on the questions you are seeking answers to.
And, you can not have too many Reloading Manuals.
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
A decade or so ago, it would have been real easy to select the 308Win as the "pick of the litter" concerning accuracy. But the good folks that manufacture our bullets (ALL of them) have made great improvements in the consistency of their manufacturing techniques. We all reap the benefits of their efforts.
So, if you are just starting out on this project, the 7mm-08 might work just as well for you as the 308Win. Likewise, I hear all kinds of good things about the 260Rem and it could possibly be another option for you to ponder over.
Here is my recommendation: Get a couple of Component Manufacturers Reloading Manuals and look them over closely. There is a lot more information in them than just how much powder to dump in. For example, the Speer Manuals have a fine External Ballistics table in the back of their Manuals which you can use to do "What If I use xxx bullet instead of xxx bullet?" question and answer sessions for yourself. It is one of the very best ways to get a good handle on the questions you are seeking answers to.
And, you can not have too many Reloading Manuals.
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
9mmepiphany
New member
iskatel - if milsup ammo isn't a consideration, you're not married to the .30 bullet, you like to shoot long distances and you don't mind a reduction in recoil, it is time to go retro.
the 7mm-08 is a short cased 7mm mauser (7x57mm) and the .260 rem is a short cased 6.5mm swedish mauser (6.5x55mm). both have a history of long range accurracy, soft recoil and killing efficency (elephant, moose, british soldiers...)
i'm in love with the 6.5 swede and looking into putting together somthing short and light for carrying.
the 7mm-08 is a short cased 7mm mauser (7x57mm) and the .260 rem is a short cased 6.5mm swedish mauser (6.5x55mm). both have a history of long range accurracy, soft recoil and killing efficency (elephant, moose, british soldiers...)
i'm in love with the 6.5 swede and looking into putting together somthing short and light for carrying.
9mmepiphany,
I thought that a 7mm-08 was a necked down .308 Win. which was based on a shortened .30-06, and a .260 Rem, while useing the same 6.5mm/.264 bullet as the Swede mauser, was originally a wildcat based on a .308 Win. case also. Am I missing something in the family trees of these cartridges?
I thought that a 7mm-08 was a necked down .308 Win. which was based on a shortened .30-06, and a .260 Rem, while useing the same 6.5mm/.264 bullet as the Swede mauser, was originally a wildcat based on a .308 Win. case also. Am I missing something in the family trees of these cartridges?
9mmepiphany
New member
taxpad - we're both right, both rounds ARE based on the .308 case so that they would fit in a "short action". both had also been "wildcats" to take advantage of the different ballistics of the 6.5mm and 7mm bullets. when they were standardised by remington, they were designed to reproduce the ballistics of the 6.5mm and 7mm mausers in the more popular shorter actions.
the true wildcat parentage would run through the .30-06 case as the 6.5-06 (.264 mag in unbelted case) and the .280 rem (john sundra's old favorite with near 7mm mag power)
the true wildcat parentage would run through the .30-06 case as the 6.5-06 (.264 mag in unbelted case) and the .280 rem (john sundra's old favorite with near 7mm mag power)
O.K.-on topic, momentarily...go with the .308...ammo availability, trajectory chart availability, etc. NOW, for why I REALLY posted...TaxPhd...the "B.Braxton" you quote wouldn't happen to be BRUCE BRAXTON, late of Ga. Range and Gun and now employed by, I believe, the City of College Park [or is it East Point...I get them confused...]????...let me know!!!....mikey357
TaxPhd-I know Bruce from his time at "Ga. Range and Gun". Being that he is a former Air Traffic Controller [in the Army, IIRC] and I'm CURRENTLY an ATC, we had a LOT to talk about...guns AND ATC!!! Just about the time he got the LE job, I gave him some info on jobs available with the contractor who was providing personnel to man some of the small towers here in GA...placed like Fulton Co.,etc...guess he decided to go with a job where he COULD shoot back, if he HAD to!!! Next time you see him, tell him that Mike the "Enroute Type" said hello...Thanks...mikey357 Oh, Yeah...BTW...is it East Point or College Park...????
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
I think hotcore had an excellent idea in getting a couple of loading manuals and digging into the facts, so I looked into my Lyman 47 as well as my Nosler #4, and the only difference that I could find is what other people have mentioned-namely that grain for grain, the 7MM-08 is a bit slicker in flight and sectional density is a bit better, meaning slightly deeper penetration. What I cannot see is much improvement in going to the 7 instead of the 308. I've looked at energy levels and bullet trajectory tables from muzzle to 500 yards and I don't see but an inch or two difference there, and velocity seems to be within 100 fps. which really surprized me. I had been lead to believe the 708 would shine the 308 at the longer distances by a fair margin, and I still like the 7MM-08 enough to buy my youngest boy one in that caliber because it doesn't kick as badly in a small rifle. In the end, I say hats off to the designers of the 308 case-it is wonderfully efficient in all its variations from 243 to 358. Now, if someone would come out with a 270-08 in a production rifle and ammo.....
EchoFiveMike
New member
What I cannot see is much improvement in going to the 7 instead of the 308. I've looked at energy levels and bullet trajectory tables from muzzle to 500 yards and I don't see but an inch or two difference there, and velocity seems to be within 100 fps. which really surprized me. I had been lead to believe the 708 would shine the 308 at the longer distances by a fair margin<<<<<<
Well, 500yds isn't really long range The only real way you're going to see trajectory differences at close and medium ranges is to jack up the bullet velocity and the 7-08 isn't about that. At 1000yds, I guarentee a difference and it's significant. My 7-08mm needs 28.5minutes of elevation to get to 1000, where as my 308's need around 39.0. That's significant in my book. The other advantage is in section density. The 160gn 7mm bullet is .286 SD and can be thrown at 2700fps or a little better. The 308 180gn bullet is.271SD and can be thrown at 2600-2650, maybe just a little better. So the 7mm 160gn is going to have better penetration assuming equal bullets. And the 7-08 can use 175gn bullets effectively, with their SD of .310, being able to get better than 2550fps from them (some books say 2600, I haven't chrono'd any yet). The 308 can go to 200gn bullets, with their SD of .301 but velocity starts dropping fast at 2450fps or so, and the 175gn 7mm beats it on SD. I like the 308, it's a good round. I just think the 7-08 is better. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Well, 500yds isn't really long range
The only real way you're going to see trajectory differences at close and medium ranges is to jack up the bullet velocity and the 7-08 isn't about that. At 1000yds, I guarentee a difference and it's significant. My 7-08mm needs 28.5minutes of elevation to get to 1000, where as my 308's need around 39.0. That's significant in my book. The other advantage is in section density. The 160gn 7mm bullet is .286 SD and can be thrown at 2700fps or a little better. The 308 180gn bullet is.271SD and can be thrown at 2600-2650, maybe just a little better. So the 7mm 160gn is going to have better penetration assuming equal bullets. And the 7-08 can use 175gn bullets effectively, with their SD of .310, being able to get better than 2550fps from them (some books say 2600, I haven't chrono'd any yet). The 308 can go to 200gn bullets, with their SD of .301 but velocity starts dropping fast at 2450fps or so, and the 175gn 7mm beats it on SD. I like the 308, it's a good round. I just think the 7-08 is better. Semper Fidelis...Ken M