308 Vs 7.62

G

genesboy

Inactive
Thanks in advance for your opinions. I'm looking to buy a rifle. I thought I knew what i wanted (223) but am now thinking of a larger round. There are so many and some seem to be specialized. So... what are the benefits or drawbacks of the 308 and 7.62? They seem similar. I'm mainly thinking for plinking and defense not hunting. I understand 223 might not have much impact after 100 yards. Again thanks for helping a new guy. :confused:
 
I have also wondered about the 308 vs the 7.62. My knowledge of it is the 7.62 is the same as the 308. The 7.62 is just the nato round for the 308. Please correct me if im wrong cause I have wonderd the same.

If I were you and I was just going to target shoot with the rifle I would go with the 223 for the little bit cheaper ammo. But I know how I am and I like the biger caliber guns also. I would go with the 308 if you dont mind the extra cash out of your pocket over time.
 
Get a 308 rifle not a 7.62. Only reason to get a 7.62 is if the only thing you ever wanted to use is 7.62 and you wanted it to absolutely shoot all 7.62 reliably. You can shoot 7.62 in 308 rifles, but some higher accuracy 308's have trouble with alot of 7.62 surplus because the higher accuracy 308's have such exact dimensions.
 
For practical purposes the 308 Winchester is the same as the 7.62x51 NATO round. As for advantages, the 308 is very precise shooting, reasonably priced and can take down any game in the lower 48. Now for the purpose of just plinking and "defense", go 223. The 223 will kill accurately up to 600 yards (unless you plan a camping trip to Afghanistan, that should satisfy anybody's defense needs) and is cheaper than the 308. It also has a lighter recoil what might be helpful for a first rifle purchase. The 223 is controversial as a hunting round for anything bigger than eastern whitetails, but that doesn't seem to a consideration.
 
Same thing

I have one 308 Savage and one 7.62 FAL. I use the same ammo in both. This is a stupider thread than the 223 v 5.56 BS.
 
I'm mainly thinking for plinking and defense not hunting. I understand 223 might not have much impact after 100 yards.
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I have nothing against the 308, but the above is not quite true. I've shoot some fairly good scores with the 223 up to and including 1000 yards in Service Rifle Matches.

Also in Service Rifle Matches the ARs in 223 are beating the scores set by the 308.

If you're not wanting to hunt the 223 would suit your intended purposes.

But if you want a 308 by all means, I have some of both. I like them both.
 
Put some 7.62 through my Remington 770 in .308 a few weeks ago...every single round was a pain to extract. I guess the higher pressures seized the casing to the chamber walls.
 
Genesboy, I think you need to understand that the 7.62 and the 308 are not exactly alike. They are close and if you like I can post the reamer specs so you can see the small differences. We started using the piezoelectric pressure gauges back in the late 1970's, around 78 as I remember to check pressures. The specs were changed in regards to published data in 1984 and all manufacturers had to conform to those specs rather than the CUP specs previously used. The 7.62 ammo is loaded with the pressure curve in mind to work with the various automatic feed rifles and machine guns. Commercial 308 does not necessarily have to conform to those specs. You'll find absolute pressure differences between the 2 rounds to be slight at best with variations from lot to lot. Most commercial 308 ammo is loaded to 55,000PSI and most military ammo is loaded to 50,000PSI to over 60,000PSI depending on the the ammo spec. Again, the difference is the pressure curve, not the absolute pressure. If you reload, it's the difference between using a fairly quick powder or using a fairly slow burn rate powder. If you're looking to buy an M1 style rifle and it's available as a 308, that would be my recommendation to you as it's more forgiving in what ammo that will reliably work the action without damage.

While the max pressure for the 308 is 430MPas (62,000PSI), most commercial ammo makers load at 55,000PSI to avoid issues with lesser quality guns. Most will use a ball type powder that yields them an 80% loading density or better. That does not always get you the correct pressure curve for the 7.62 auto feed rifles. Most military 7.62 ammo is loaded with IMR4895, WC852, or CMR100.
 
This is a stupider thread than the 223 v 5.56 BS.
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There is nothing stupid about someone seeking knowledge. YOU were not born with the knowledge of the similarities or differences between 7.62 and .308. At some point in your life you learned it.
 
Knowledge

Quote:
This is a stupider thread than the 223 v 5.56 BS.
There is nothing stupid about someone seeking knowledge. YOU were not born with the knowledge of the similarities or differences between 7.62 and .308. At some point in your life you learned it.
__________________
You can take the Texan out of Texas, but you can't take Texas out of the Texan.
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Agreed, it sometime seems so many are angry, and then they post harsh comments...while all along there are some who seek to help those who's level of certain things are unknown to them.

I like the TFL forum because of its kind members, let keep the encouragement of our sport ALIVE....
 
I like the TFL forum because of its kind members, let keep the encouragement of our sport ALIVE....
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Agreed, When i post a question here i don't have to second guess myself as to how the members will react.
 
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.308 is similar to 7.62 x 51 (nato designation) like .223 is to 5.56 x 45.

When you refer to 7.62 there is the question of 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 51 and also 7.62 x 54. 7.62 (I believe) refer to the bore dia or projectile dia.

As stated by Loader9 there is a pressure difference between the .308 vs 7.62x51 and its military counterpart just as in .223 vs .5.56.

It would also help to know what type of rifle you are looking at?

AR / AK / Semi auto / Bolt action?

If you are looking for accuracy then, as also suggested, the .223 / 5.56 is an effective round for that. I would not underestimate the down range impact / lethality of the round either. My understanding is that the optimum effective range of the rounds is something like 4-600yd for .223/5/56 and 8-1000yd for .308.

.223 will have the advantage of cheaper quality ammo.

I think the selection of good ammo for both calibers should be similar.

For plinking, cheap rifle, and ammo then you should be looking at an AK variant in 7.62 x 39 or 5.45 x 39 (AK47 or AK74) I am told the 74 has better accuracy. Ammo can be had cheaply. This platform will fall on it's face when it comes to accuracy though. Pie plate at 1-200yd? yes ragged hole at 200yds? no.

All that said the rifle that has been getting the most use by me lately is a converted 16" Saiga in .308 using cheap Surplus Nato ammo I am getting locally for 7$ a box.
 
This question seems to come up every month or so since to beginning of time.:rolleyes:

Below are some excerpts from a article that FALPhil wrote several years ago.

Head space:
"There is a .013" difference in acceptability, between these two specifications. This is significant in that, for reloading purposes, brass will stretch more in a military chamber upon firing, thereby reducing the life
of the brass and possibly promoting case head separation. But that additional length will allow a round to chamber in an incredibly dirty weapon, which is a requirement for military applications.

Headspace 308 Winchester (SAAMI) Headspace 7.62 NATO (Military)
GO - 1.6300" GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6340" NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6380" FIELD - 1.6455"

However, it must be noted that this is the chamber specification and not the ammunition specification. The external dimensions of the two types of ammunition are nearly identical".

"The real problem is the confusion between the old and the new methods of pressure testing. The old pressure testing method used for the 7.62 NATO cartridge started out life in the 1950s and is still published today in the US Army Technical Manuals. The figures are based on the copper crusher
method in CUP, but are published as PSI. The new method is the piezoelectric strain gauge transducer method; it is the same technology used today to show an automobile’s oil pressure. The piezoelectric strain gauge transducer pressure method is a direct pressure reading based on an absolute standard, where the older copper crusher method a conversion based on a relative measure and a conversion chart. And this is why you see the difference in the pressure readings, but the older 52,000 CUP is equal to 62,000 PSI (piezoelectric transducer method). Today, these two methods are called CUP and PSI and the readings are different, but 52,000 CUP equals 62,000 PSI and both are the same pressure, similar to the way 60 MPH equals 100 KPH. To add even more confusion about the Ishapore 2A1, which started me on this article, many shooters want to use the headspace specifications set by NATO, which is different from what the Indian Army set for the Ishapore rifles".


It boils down to as long as the rifle passes head space for the cartridge used your gtg.
 
I'm mainly thinking for plinking and defense not hunting. I understand 223 might not have much impact after 100 yards
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One thing to think about here. Price. The .223 is a fine round, I use mine out to 500 yards with great effect, I use it, not because I like the round better, and truth be told I despise cleaning my ar, to many nooks and crannies to clean, but it costs me 40% less to shoot it.
 
So what is the REAL ANSWER

Yeah this comes up every few months, and I see the same opposite answers every time. Which is it?

I have always heard you can shoot 7.62NATO in a .308win, but not the reverse.

For 5.56 I hear you can shoot .223 rem in a 5.56NATO, but not the reverse.

What is the CORRECT answer?
 
The Army AMU, the NG NGMTU and Marines MTU, before they all went to ARs used Match M14s. The M14s had match "Barnett" barrels chambered in 308. They also used Military Semi-Heavy Match Barrels, The Barnett barrels were 6 grove barrels, the Military Barrels were 4 grove.

The M-118 w/173 bullets worked quite well in the Military Barrels but not too well in the 6 grove barrels. I don't know about the Marines, but the AMU, and some state Guard MTUs (mine included) made Mexican Match, that is to say they pulled the 173 bullets replacing them with 168 SMKs. They worked quite well in the 6 grove barrels.

As the machinery for the M118s got old, specs went south, so the Army started loading the M118s in brown boxes calling it Special Ball (For Sniper Use). Lake City developed M852 which is the same as the Mexican Match with the 168 SMKs.

Also used was Federal Match 308s with the 168 SMKs,

All the above ammo was used in M14 with 308 and 7.62 chambers, Of the thousands of M14s Ive seen used, I never ever heard of any problems shooting 7.62 in 308 chambers, or 308 in 7.62 chambers. Every state MTU I know of, as well as the Army Marksmanship Unit used both chambers and ammo. Many NG Shooters used personnel M1As as oppose to Guard guns in competitions in Little Rock (Winston P. Wilson National Guard Championships) who issued M118 and in my later years M852 with no bad effects.

Gene Barnett, who owns Barnett Barrels was at the time I was in, an armor for the National Guard Championships (in fact he converted my M1A from a standard to a Super Match). He agrees, you can't hurt a rifle shooting either round in either chamber.

You can buy all the Internet hype you want, you'll not find any difference in shooting.
 
The truth about the .308 Winchester and the 7.62 NATO

[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/46153617/The-Truth-About-308-Win-and-762-NATO[/URL]

As you can see below it is safe to put 32 psi in tires, BUT if you put 220 kPa in your tires your tires will blowup and kill everyone in a 300 yard radius. :rolleyes:

IMGP3024-1.jpg


Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?
What about 7.62 in a 308?
By Jim Bullock


http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
 
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