.308 loads for AR-10 or similar semi-autos

I inherited a few hundred sierra 168gr bthp in .308, I had no use for them for awhile but saved them anyway knowing that they were good bullets.

Finally, the time has come. last week my brother bought a AR10 and I asked if he wanted the bullets, he said yeah but only if I can load them for him. So that’s the plan.

He said it’s a Willson Combat barrel. Unfortunately I can’t work up the load in his rifle myself because he’s living in Georgia. So my hope was some general advice about reloads in .308 for a modern semi-auto from anyone with experience.
powders I have are blc-2, cfe 223, r17 I think blc2 will be best for the purpose.
 
Cfe has given some decent results in gas guns if I recall. I don't recommend RL17... little too slow burning for that use in a AR
 
Varget will work very well with those bullets in an AR-10.

I prefer nor to give charge weights. My brother has the Armalite AR-10.

As I recall,he loads about 1 1/2 gr under book max load.

You have to find your own "max"

He gets superb accuracy with that load.

Hogdon's online reloading data shows a 46 gr max load with the 168 gr SMK.That is shown as a compressed load.Pressure is given at 50.600 CUP (Not PSI)

Go to Hogdon website for details such as primer,brass,LOA,etc
 
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My preference powders for both my AR 10 and my M1A are IMR 4895, Hodgdon H-4895 and Accurate Arms 2495. Just a me thing and certainly not gospel but I see Varget as just being a little too slow but again just a me thing. For gas guns and maintaining good reliable port pressures I like the three I mentioned. I use those powders below Sierra Match King 168 grain bullets with good results.

There are no shortage of powders to load the .308 Winchester cartridge, including below a 168 grain bullet. VIHT N-135, Accurate 2520, Varget, IMR 4064, Alliant RL 15, VIHT N-140, VIHT N-150 and Win 748 and then some. I just think it is prudent to consider what rifle you are loading for and the bullet over the powder. Powders like CFE 223 and Varget I see more as coming into their own with the heavier 178 grain and 180 grain BTHP match bullets. Keep in mind again, just my thinking and opinion and we know what we can say about opinions.

Hope your brother enjoys his rifle. :)

Ron
 
Reload Ron,he enjoys it a lot. He bought it as an AR-10 T with a Badger barrel that was 24 in,then he had me cut it to 20 in.
We did load testing with nearly all the appropriate powders.
Varget was on top.

A Handloader mag article did extensive testing tofigure out the top 308 accuracy load after we did our work,and they came to the same conclusion about Varget.

There is another 308 pet load thread currently up.I posted a link that will get you to the Handloader Magazine cover with the article.It has a pic of an M-1 Carbine on it.

Using a bipod,you could typically hide his 300 yd groups behind a lime.

After several thousand rounds,he noticed groups just starting to open a bit,so he bought a Krieger bbl.

He installed it on a Friday,went shooting on Saturday to confirm sights for pronghorn season.

I know 3 shots is not a group. It will show you if the scope is on.I'm not making an MOA claim from 3 shots,but the targets at 300 and 600 yds were about 3/8 MOA.
They were not flukes. That rifle/ammo combination shoots.

Where he 3-guns,the LEO SWAT folks do some long range stuff out to 1000 yds.They have AI,etc world class sniper equipt. He shoots with them using that rifle. I'm not saying he beats them out,but he holds his own.
 
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I wasn't knocking Varget or saying it was a poor choice. Mine is an AR-10(T) Armalite with a 24" Kreiger barrel and I just never had the best results with Varget which could rest with me. Like I mentioned, it was only my thoughts on the subject. I am not anti-Varget and I also mentioned I liked it for the heavier than 168 grain bullets. Use whatever works best in a given rifle.

Ron
 
No problem,Reload Ron.
If I can get these loaded,here are targets. Actually,he was using 168 Nosler CC's
at 2713 fps Only 3 shots at 600 yds to check scope.


https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453255

This next one is 3 shots checking zero at 300 with 165 Ballistic tips Clicking this will take you to an old TFL thread. See post # 37

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73929&d=1316500028

Certainly there are other powders. This is my experience.When someone asks what works,its the best info I have.

You mentioned it seemed slow. I wonder if your 24 in bbl vs his 20 in bbl has something to do with your impression. I assume both gas ports are in the same location.You would have 4 inches more dwell time after the port. ?Maybe? IDK.
 
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Well, when they group up like that you run with it. While off topic, in your first link I see the comments by Bart B who was quite active in several forums but I no longer see anywhere? Maybe when the ice and snow melts it's time for me to revisit Varget.

Something of interest with the Varget is in for example the Hornady 9th edition in the service rifle loads where they used a M1A only Varget and H4895 get the velocity up to 2600 FPS, all the other powders are max loads at 2500 FPS.

Thinking you are into something with barrel length also. I want to say my original barrel was maybe 18" and it's around here somewhere. The first thing I did was put the 24" Kreiger barrel on the rifle. All in all I added about 6" of barrel.

Ron
 
I use TAC and AA2495 for my .308 Pattern ARs. Consistent case neck tension is important for the best accuracy.

Not a fan of Varget in gas guns, and especially in the .308 patterns. Increased wear of the gas system including the gas port. I use it in bolt guns though.
 
The Hornady manual has a section for Garand 30-06 loads, so does it also have a section for 308/7.62x51 service rifle load data? My copy is out in the shop and it's raining...:p
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


NorthIDIndependent,

In general, you want to stay with powders that are in the same burn rate range as those used by the military. The military used 4895 for M118 Special Ball and M852 match ammunition that used the 168 Grain Sierra MatchKing bullet. Varget and IMR4064 are slightly slower but still in that range. The only powders you have that are not too much slower than those are CFE223 and BL-(C)2. Neither of these are what I would call 'target shooting' powders, but BL-(C)2 is canister grade WC846 which was developed for 7.62 NATO ball ammunition originally, and the AR10 is designed to be happy with that. Just don't go slower.

Your CFE223 is slightly faster than BL-(C)2. Both are high deterrent concentration spherical powders, and it is recommended that a magnum primer be used with them, even though the 308 is not a magnum case. This is because they are harder to light than stick and flake powders are. CCI reformulated their magnum primers specifically for this kind of powder in 1989. The CCI #34 primer would be my first choice for the AR10, as it is a version of their #250 magnum primer tweaked to meet military sensitivity specifications, which the AR10 is designed for. They are actually a little harder (ignition-wise) than the #250 to mitigate any tendency for a floating firing pin rifle to have a slamfire with them. This isn't a great risk with the Armalite design, but why not match what it was designed to shoot unless you just can't get them.

I don't know any magic recipes for those powders, but because they are slower than 4895 or 4064, they will produce the same muzzle velocity with a bit lower peak pressure. You would, therefore, be good to go matching the velocity of known safe loads of the same bullet made using those faster powders and the magnum primers in any 308 test gun you might have on hand.

The way to get that velocity is to buy a box of Federal GM308M ammunition. This is Federal's match ammunition using your same Sierra 168-grain MatchKing bullet loaded over IMR4064. Fire two fouling shots, then shoot the rest to get an average velocity over your chronograph. Note that GM308M2 is not the same (uses the 175-grain SMK), so don't get that by mistake. The "2" on the end changes the bullet.


HiBC said:
I know 3 shots is not a group. It will show you if the scope is on.

Not very well. On average, the ability of a three-shot group to show the location of the center of all possible points of impact is statistically about 1.73 times better than its ability to show you average group size. But that still isn't doing either very well. This is based on the standard error (SE) which is the standard deviation (SD) of the radial SD of the size of the group. (Radial SD is the square root of the sum of the squares of the horizontal dispersion SD and the vertical dispersion SD.) It is calculated by taking the group radial SD and dividing by the square root of the number of shots in the group. 1.73 is the square root of 3, hence the factor of 1.73 in precision.

Here's an example. I used Excel's random number generator to make a file that simulates shot bivariate distribution modeled after Bryan Litz's simulator. I had it "fire" 1000 rounds in zero wind with perfect sight zero (the yellow-orange cross in the center). It's a solidly 2 moa "gun", but this all scales, meaning that if we change the 2's on the horizontal and vertical axes to 1 and call the biggest ring 1.5 moa and the next one 1 moa and the smallest one 0.5 moa, we would have what a 1 moa gun would do.

Next to the 1000 round target, separated onto targets or their own, are the first three groups of 3 out of that 1000 (the first 9 shots) with all the other shots cleared away. The green crosses are the mean center of each group of three, so if each of the three was used to "correct" the already-perfectly-zeroed sight, the distance and direction from each green cross to the yellow-orange center cross is the size of the error that "correction" would introduce, moving point of impact that same amount to the opposite side of the center cross.

With the exception of the third target, the green crosses are closer to the yellow-orange zero than the groups are wide. That third one just shows this is random and the green being closer than the groups are wide is only true on average, but not necessarily so in every case. The bottom line is, as far as revealing true zero goes, three shots just can't be counted on for critical zeroing.

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Hmmmm. Learned something new! Thank you.

A fellow could darn near wear out a hot overbore barrel just sighting it in!

It does seem ,for practical purposes,the more accurate a rifle is,the fewer shots are necessary. For example,a .001 MOA rifle could be a 1 shot zero,and a 12 MOA rifle might require 20 or 30 shots to get past the random distribution.

I'll remember that....Not all the higher math,but the general idea.
 
The Hornady manual has a section for Garand 30-06 loads, so does it also have a section for 308/7.62x51 service rifle load data? My copy is out in the shop and it's raining...

Yes, but the service rifle was a M1A.

Unclenick, thanks a bunch for another enlightening post.

Ron
 
I shoot the same load in my DPMS LR 308 that I do in my Springfield M1A.

Hornandy 168 gr AMAX, Lake City Brass, 41.0 gr RL 15, 2.800 COAL

Been shooting this for quite some time. Always consistent.
 
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