.303 British - Any users here?

J

jrslate

New member
Gentlemen,

I was just wondering if any of the regulars here have or use .303 British rifles? I have a No.I MkIII* that I just love. I have shortened the barrel to 21", added a simmons 1.5-5x scope, re-stocked it, and installed a 5-rd magazine. It is the rifle that rides in my truck, and has accounted for several deer, a few bear, and a couple of elk.

My favorite load is the Hornady 174 gr. RN Interlock over 44.0 gr. of Reloader 15. What else do you all like?

Anybody have any experience with the Gibbs Rifle Jungle Carbine remakes?

Thanks in advance...

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm
 
aye - No1 MkIII

In fact, having been on call and trapped at home the last few days I've been toying with it some more. Almost have a weaver rail dremel-tooled (invent a verb today!) down to match the contours of the barrel just forward of the flat part. Yes, I'm doing the Cooper(scoutish) thing. I figure I'm not going to dump a ton of money to explore the concept, but if I can come close with some elbow grease then so be it! Tough part is finding aftermarket two-part stock blanks.
 
Here, too.



I noted that at least a couple of us mentioned the .303 Brit on your "Favorite 3 rounds" thread.

Of the rifle cartridges I shoot and reload for regularly, this one's my favorite. I have an all mil-spec No. 4 Mk I, which shoots just fine, although the barrel is pitted in places.

I also have a highly customized, elegantly stocked No. 4 that looks like an old Jeffery- or Rigby-style Lee-Metford, at least until you see the peep sight. The metal was polished and dehorned (where needed) and then deeply blued. It's got a banded front sight with hood, a functional and nicely blued 5-rd magazine, a Talley barrel band swivel ala the classic British big game rifle (it looks, at first glance, like the rifle carried by Kilmer early in The Ghost & The Darkness, except on mine the wood is darker). And this one's a shooter! With certain handloads (some 180gn Sierras) it's almost MOA at 100yds - iron sights. Even with factory loads it's pretty tight. It likes PMC's 180gn (GameKing bullets), and the Federal 180gn load too. Lately I've been loading up the 215gn Woodleigh Weldcores. Still looking for the right loads with these, but I had some decent groups at the last range outting. The best with the 215 grainers shot into about 1 1/2 inches, using 41gns of IMR 4320 (YMMV). I'm sure it can do better. I've got some of the 174gn Hornady's but just haven't had time to work up loads for these.

If you don't already have it, I highly recommend Stephen Redgwell's "Shooting The 303 British". Great reloading data for a wide range of bullet weights, among other useful information. He has a very nice .303 website, but I don't have the URL handy.

As to your final question about Gibbs, I've got a Gibbs "Extreme Carbine" in .303 which I've posted about before. It's basically a "carbine-ized" No. 4 MkI, with an electrolus (sp?) nickel finish.

I restocked it with walnut stocks from Boyd's, as the "sporterized" military stocks it came with were for-sh*t. The buttstock was way too short, and the forend was too long (unnecessary weight). But once it was wearing the new stocks (with 1 inch recoil pad), and after it was correctly bedded, it's been nothing but a pleasure to shoot. Very good groups at 100 yds with both mil-spec ammo and the "hunting" type ammo mentioned before - especially given its short 20 inch barrel, which includes the muzzle brake. Athough loud, the brake does dampen recoil. At a regional gun show I found a heavily-cosmolined but otherwise "new" looking 10 round Lee-Enfield No.4 mag. No problems with feeding or jams so far.

Right now the carbine's away for more stock work - having 3 Pachmyr flush-mount swivels put in (for use with my 3-point Ching sling :D ). Some posters here have asked for pictures. Once I get it back, I'll try to oblige.

Hope this helps.
 
Yes, I have five, actually I have five Enfields but only four of them are in .303. The other is a .410 musket. I have two No.1 Mk. IIIs, a No4 Mk.1 and a Navy Arms Mk. 4 No. 1 Tanker. All are as close to original as I can get them including the right period sling, the right period oiler and pull throughs etc. I am violently opposed to cutting up a piece of history to make a sporting rifle. If I want a sporting rifle, I can get one at Wal Mart. If I want a piece of history...................... But to each his own, I know a lot of people enjoy cutting these rifles up, so enjoy.
The .303 is a decent cartridge. I place it above the 8mm Mauser but below the .30-06 and 7.62x54. The Enfield is supposed to be the fastest bolt action battle rifle in the world. I was talking to a Koreon War vet the other day who said, he would have rather have had the Enfield the Brits were using than our M1. He said he saw the Brits fire them just as fast as our M1 and their rifle held 10 rounds while the M1 held 8. He also said that no matter how cold it got or how dirty the rifle got, the Enfield just kept on ticking. I don't agree with him, but that is one man who has seen the elephants' opionion. I still see Enfields in action all over the world. These are very popular in Afganistan or at least you see pictures of Afgans carrying them. When India had that hijacking a couple months ago and the aircraft was surrounded by some "elite" unit, they were carrying Enfields.
 
The old 303 Brit. is one of my favorites. I have 3 at the moment. (down from 5!) 1 #4Mk1, 1 #5Mk1 and a scout rifle built off of a #5Mk1. (you can see the details and pics of the scout at www.303british.com click on the "burnt out Jungle Carbine article)

I regularly hunt with the scout. It is very accurate, printing sub moa with a variety of loads. It really shouldn't be as accurate as it is but who's complaining?!

As a matter of fact, tomorrow is opening day for deer so I need to get my butt to bed. I'll be using a 303!
 
Guys,

Thanks for all of the great responses. I really enjoy visiting www.303british.com I think Steve has a great website. I really think there is something to be said for a low-recoiling rifle that hits hard at the ranges that game is usually found. I am very much of an enthusiasts for the 7mm Remington Magnum and the .45-70, but more times than not, the rifle in my hand when I leave my cabin is the .303. I guess that means I like it.

I am very anxious to try some loads with the 215 gr. Woodleigh. There is a local guy here (Oregon) that makes a 225 gr. softpoint. I have a sample of them, but have yet to load them up to see what they can do. I am guessing that within 200 yards, they will act like a sledgehammer on game.

As far as their use in other countries, I have seen them used very extensively in Africa, where the local farmers don't hesitate to use them on cattle killing lions and leopards, and nearly anything else that walks...

Lets keep the great responses coming...

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
The Safari Specialists
www.slatesafaris.com
 
Just love the .303. In fact the local 'smith is making me up a Ruger #1 on the .303 for me. The absolute very best hunting round I've found for it uses the Woodleigh 215gr bullet. This is very close to the original sporting load for the .303.
Can't wait to try it next year on Elk.:D
 
Yeah, I got one, too.

No 4 MkI, original stock, metal buttplate. I can shoot that all day. Pretty accurate, too. Was shooting 500m Ram silohuettes and scoring 70% hits, but that was mostly me missing. The stock is beat up, but it handles like a dream.

If ammo were as plentiful as for my FAL or '06, it'd be my go-to gun after my FAL in case of, er, times of strife. :D

Best part: $79.00

TimW
Phoenix
 
Yeah, I got one, too.

No 4 MkI, original stock, metal buttplate. I can shoot that all day. Pretty accurate, too. Was shooting 500m Ram silohuettes and scoring 70% hits, but that was mostly me missing. The stock is beat up, but it handles like a dream.

If ammo were as plentiful as for my FAL or '06, it'd be my go-to gun after my FAL in case of, er, times of strife. :D

Best part: $79.00

TimW
Phoenix
 
SMLE, 1916. All original, all matching, no import stamp.

Then some idiot had to sporterize the stock.

Looking for a replacement.
Still....

$79...

seems to be the price.

accurate, light, would prefer it was rimless, but...
 
I have two.

A 1954 No4 Mk2 (still unfired), and a Gibbs Quest Extreme.

I replaced the wartime expediant peep site with the real adjustable peep and have been thinking about a new stock.

I really like the looks of the standard QE stock, but I agree with AGTMAN that its too short. My right hand cramps up as I can't get a good grip on it.

I've been thinking about just getting a Ramline stock, or maybe the Boyds (based on agtman's recommendation).

Even with the brass buttplate, recoil doesn't bother me with this gun, I can shoot it all day.
 
madmike: isn't that a shame ? I was at a guy's house not long ago when he proudly showed me a 98 Mauser he "sporterized". It was now a .257 Roberts with a thumbhole stock and a scope. I looked at the markings; all Nazi markings present, no import mark. I didn't even bother telling this dolt what he could have sold the original rifle for if he hadn't ruined it.
I understand the urge to play around with stuff like this but there are a ton of rifles already cut up around with cutting up any more of them.
For those of you that don't follow stuff like this, after the war, most German rifles had the markings ground off or at least the Nazi markings. The rifles were then used by other countries which often times put their own markings on the guns. Then in this country there is a law now that these guns can't be imported without having the metal stamped with the name of the importer. This rifle had none of the above, it was most likely a war trophy that bypassed all the government mandates. I am not saying that this guy could have been rich by leaving the rifle alone, but it was worth considerably more before he started sporterizing it than it was with the new stock, scope and all that. He now put the rifle on consignment at one of the local gun shops. He wants more for it than it would cost me to just buy a new Remington 700ADL. He isn't thinking.
 
Agtman, can you post a pic of your rifle? it sounds really cool. I'm a big fan of turn of the century rifles and would love to see your sporter.

I've only fired a few 303's, the first one was a sporterized "carbine" that kicked like a mule with factory 174 grain ammo. As recall, the ballistics were a bit light for big elk, but I know they are used for elk.

The next one I fired had a brass butt plate and looked liked it had been dipped in beeswax and baked in an oven the sock was sooo ugly. There was a big yellow "T" painted under all the varnish which made me wonder if it had been a "trainer' of a drilling rifle at one time. The heavier stock kept the recoil down but the muzzle blast was still terrific.

The third one I shot belonged to TFL guy Coinneach. Still an ugly rifle and as I recall the safety on his was buggered up somehow and we were shooting Indian Army issue fmj's. What was cool about it is we were out in the rain standing in mud and the blast of the rifle called back visions of trenches and smoke and bayonets.

Not matter how ugly the old SMLE in your collection may be, it will ALWAYS be a shooter.

One of these days I'd like to pick up an smle to go with my springfield but I won't likely buy dies and brass, there is just too much cheap Indian FMJ on the market. :D
 
I've got a 1950 Longbranch Mk4 #1. Just for fun I neck size the brass and load 174 Sierra Match bullets with match Federal primers and a proper load of RL 15 powder. That puppy will shoot..:D
 
Dr Rob:



Do you mean the No. 4 that looks like an early Jeffery-Lee Speed Sporter, or the Gibbs carbine? I have pictures for the former, but not (yet) for the latter, which is off having Pachmyr flush-mounts installed. If you meant the first, I don't have a scanner (still very low tech here), so I'll e-mail you for details. By the way, any of the short-barrelled Enfields will kick like a mule unless there's a muzzle brake/compensator involved. The one on the Gibbs actually works, but it is loud. Their others I haven't tried (e.g., the #5 "Jungle" carbine or the "converted" carbine in 7.62 Nato with the Weaver mount).


444 and others:


Just so we're clear, I actually agree that "sporterizing" an otherwise collectible military firearm is generally a bad idea, if for no other reason than that it depletes the finite pool of such firearms for passing on to the next generation. These old military arms have a history and heritage to them, and, some would argue, even esthetic qualities. However, where someone came into a Mauser with a shot-out barrel, some missing parts, etc., I would be less concerned that he rebarrelled and sporter-stocked it for hunting, thus turning it in to something personally useful and enjoyable, as opposed to throwing it in the trash. Similarly, I had Fulton Armory, long ago, rebarrel a shot-out M-1 Garand for my Dad and I to shoot when he comes to town. Aside from that, it's mil-spec.

As I said, one of my No.4s is in mil-spec condition, which is how I got it. Other than shooting and cleaning it, nothing's been done to it.

The Gibbs carbine came the way it came, already cut-down, refinished, with muzzlebrake, etc. All I did was to put on new stocks that fit properly and find a No.4 mag that worked.

The No.4 Enfield that we ended up customizing along the lines of the early Lee-Metfords was already substantially "sporterized" when I bought it (stocks cut down, etc). No pristine military collectable was sacrificed (by me anyway) on the altar of "sporterizing."
 
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Gibbs (aka Fibbs) quit making their No5Mk1 clones

When the latest batch of Malaysian-owned real No5Mk1's started coming in late last year. They just couldn't compete with their cut-down Ishapores. I bought one of the Malaysian carbines, and although it's a real shoulder-thumper, it's a delight to carry, and quick-handling.

I just sold a Long Branch No4Mk1* that I had purchased as a barreled action, and restored to full military condition. I still see it at the range on weekends, the new owner bought thousands of rounds of cordite ball, and it's now one of his favorite rifles. It shot ok, although the bore was lightly pitted. It just didn't feel or look as "right" as the No1MkIII and it's big protected rear tangent sight and bayonet lug/muzzle cap. So now I'm down to just 3 Lee-Enfields, a 1945 BSA Shirley No5Mk1, a 1942 Lithgow No1MkIII*, and a 1917 Enfield Lock No1MkIII* (My favorite, and tightest shooter of all three)


As far as power levels, I'd rate the .303 British closer to the .30-40 Krag. Don't forget, the 8mm Mauser, loaded to proper German specs, is much closer to the .30-06 in oomph. American 8mm fodder is ridiculously underloaded to prevent kabooms in ancient 88 Mauser (Commission) Rifles, hence the weak .30-30 level performance from Federal, Winchester, and Remington 8mm ammo.

For my Lee-Enfields, I load the same 174gr Hornady FMJBT/ Reloader 15 loads as listed on .303British.com. For the sake of my shoulder, I also load the 123gr FMJ AK bullets on top of a light charge of IMR4895, specifically for my No5Mk1. It also turns out to be a great confidence booster when fired in the full-sized No1MkIII*, as my 5'2" girlfriend isn't real keen on recoil otherwise. :D
 
Here's an extraction from Accurate Arms:

It's a good place to visualize the disparity. They list the U.S. and SAAMI "limited pressure" load, and then, on a second page, the European full pressure (and German military) loads. They state the 8x57 Mauser, when loaded to European pressures, is approximately 97% of the loading limit for the .30-06. I'll use their fastest loads using the Hornady 150gr spire point as a comparison between the two pages, it shows the difference quite vividly.

U.S. "limited pressure" SAAMI load, 150gr Hornady SP

Start: 47.7gr AA4350 = 2107fps
Max: 53.0gr AA4350 = 2394fps @32,500psi

European full pressure load, 150gr Hornady SP

Start: 42.3gr AA2015BR = 2382fps
Max: 47.0gr AA2015BR = 2849fps @52,000psi

SAAMI downrated the 8mm for safety purposes, to prevent .323" bullets being fired in older 88 Mausers designed for the .318" ammo.

As you can see, just a wee bit of difference between the two versions of the 8mm Mauser!

:D
 
That had never occured to me. The first time I ever look at the ballistics of the 8mm Mauser, I was disappointed. Now I know why.
 
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