300 Weatherby Loading Issues

J

Jambuster

Inactive
I've had my Weatherby for many years and when I first got it I shot Remington Factory 180 gr loads and Weatherby 180 gr loads . The Remington's would regularly give about a 3/4" 5 shot group and the Weatherby Ammo would give about 1 to 1 1/8" groups . My hand loads averaged 1 1/4" to 1 1/2"regardless of bullet /powder considerations.

Last year I bought a head-space gauge and immediately realized my RCBS full length die is pushing the shoulder back about .006" . So the point of all this is I am about to try again . I bought a Lee collet neck sizing die and I am going to take some fired cases and try to work up a load. My reasoning here is these cases are the size of the chamber. Yesterday, just as a check I put the fired brass on a concentrisity gauge and the first 20 showed less than .001" run-out at the neck. When I get some bullets loaded in them I will check the bullet run-out.

If I can get loads that produce 1" groups or less than my next step is to get a set of those Redding competition shell holders and adjust my full length sizer till i get it to set the shoulder back .001-.002" .

If you have any thoughts or experience with this same or similar problem I would be interested in your thoughts.
 
To me, that sounds like a reasonable approach. But, know that if you use just the Lee Collet Die, the cases will eventually become hard to chamber, as they ‘grow’. So, you will want to use that full length sizing Die and the varied height shell holders. Of course you could just take an easier path and back the FL Die out until you find the degree of shoulder reset you want.

If you are now setting the shoulder back 0.006 and wish to have a setback of 0.002, somebody on this forum (Mr Guffey) will be able to tell you the amount of turns you need to back the Die out to the right place.
 
What I have found is some variation in the case variance and I now shoot for .003.

While I know its not technically scientific, its what I have found and just accept it and made that adjustment.

I may have spring back in the shoulder, cases are annealed and not cracking.
 
My 1980's 300 Weatherby shoots Hornady 150 and 180 grain bullets sub 1" and close to 1/2 groups. I load Weatherby brass, Fed 215 primers, and Norma MRP powder. I've only used Hornady's recommended overall length. My Weatherby dies will also push shoulders back too much and I had case stretching and only got 4 rds. before they showed dangerous stretch rings. On a trip to the range one year accuracy went from 1/2" to 1 1/2". Close inspection showed my beautiful Laser Mark stock had warped just enough to touch the barrel on the mid right side. Removing wood and accuracy went back to 1/2". My Weatherby MkV has a free floated barrel except for a pad at the front the barrel rests on and supposed to have 16 inch pounds down force. Later the wood stock has been replaced with a Fibermark synthetic stock. Weatherby installed and bedded it and accuracy is still the same. I would still recommend full length sizing and measure shoulders for .002-.003" clearance. My Weatherby seating die is a straight line type with a bullet window in the die. It would be a good test to check your loaded bullet run out. I'd also use the dollar bill method to check your stock clearance. Slide the dollar under the barrel to check for any tight spots except for the pad under the barrel at the front of the stock. Your Weatherby may have a different stock-barrel method?
 
Welcome to tfl!

Welcome to the Firing Line!

ok,, now I have to ask, what gun are you shooting? A Weatherby Mk V with its freebored barrel? Or something else chambered in .300 WBY??

How many rounds (approx.) have you fired through that barrel?

and finally, this..

If I can get loads that produce 1" groups or less...
Click to expand...

What if you can't???

What I mean is, the results you have gotten are pretty darn good, especially if you are shooting a big game rifle, made to be carried and used afield on deer, elk, caribou and such, and do it well at longer ranges. You might spend a lot of time and money and find you really can't improve groups all that much, if any.

I'm not trying to jinx anything, but you need to be aware that you can spend a ton of money and do every trick in the book to the rifle and to your loads, and there's no guarantee of turning 1.5MOA into .75MOA. Often one or two things will make a difference, but sometimes the difference is not as much as desired, and sometimes, its a difference in the wrong direction!

SO be prepared mentally as you go forward, and good luck!!
 
This is a Waetherby Vanguard that originally came with a tupperware stock. It now wears a B&C metalist stock with Aluminum bedding block. It is fully free floated and has a Timney trigger set a 2.5 pounds. I have fired about 300 rounds through it over the years.

Well the biggest game i hunt is wild pigs and long shots are less than 100 yards. So my weatherby is certainly good enough for that. However, what will happen is it will stay in the closet and not get used because all my other guns shoot better and that is what i enjoy.

I do far more shooting and handloading than hunting . Like i said i know the gun is capable i would just like my handloads to perform as well as i am use too.
 
"If I can get loads that produce 1" groups or less than my next step"

Really? How much better than that do you NEED a 300WBY to shoot? It's a high energy, heavy recoiling hunting round.
I shot a 300 Win mag target rifle for several years so I do have some experience. If you're getting 1" groups with a hunting rifle of this power/recoil range, you're already above the norm.
 
I never said anything about "need" . My goal if you read the first post was to get handloads that shoot as good as my original factory loads. The gun will clearly shoot better and i want it to perform at it's best only because that is what i enjoy . This is about having fun and improving you handloading and shooting skills.i posted this because the group here seems to be technically more savvy than most sites.

Mobuck - My hand loads don't give me better than about 1 1/4" but I think they can. Thus the challenge .
 
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"...1" groups or less..." Whatever for? You have a hunting rifle for which you have already worked up a consistent hunting load. Smaller groups won't kill any better. You're over complicating the whole thing with gadgets.
Most of the stuff sold these days for reloading has the primary purpose of separating you from your money and little else. For example, cartridges do not have headspace. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance only.
And neck sizing only does nothing at all for accuracy. Plus, sooner or later, you will have to FL resize anyway. Neck sizing only is a technique for extending case life.
"...set the shoulder back .001-.002"..." You can't even see 1 or 2 thou. Nor can you size a shoulder by that little.
 
This is about having fun and improving your handloading and shooting skills' posted this because the group here seems to be technically more savvy than most sites.
Click to expand...

Except when it comes to head space: You purchased a head space gage for a belted magnum; immediately after that you went into moving the shoulder back. I have given up on getting reloaders to consider the belted magnum head space gage does not make it to the shoulder of the chamber and it is too short to consider it when measuring the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. When I measure the length of the a belted magnum chamber I disregard the belt and or the shoulder. And then there is the belted magnum datum; I know and I understand I lost the technically savvy reloaders because the belted chamber does not have two head spaces.

I off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, I do not use case head space because my cases do not have head space. AND! I am the reloader that has clearance.

And then there is therapy for the belted magnum chamber, I do not have problems with the case expanding in front of the belt, I have found cases with as much as .017" expansion in front of the belt and I have found the extractor groove with the same problem; most reloaders claim they can 'fit-that', so can I but I won't.

F. Guffey
 
Jambuster asks a simple question and all he gets is grief about why he’d want or need to do that. He doesn’t need to, but he WANTS to. What’s so wrong with that, since it’s what most of us are doing or have done.

Jambuster, just back the FL Die out until you get the shoulder setback you want. It’s as simple as that. You’ll have to fiddle with it till you get what you want, but after that you are set forever. You can measure the setback if you have the tools, or you can just employ the ‘shade tree’ version, which is what I did in early years. Fire a case until it becomes hard to chamber. Unlock the ring on the FL Die and back it out until it won’t touch the case shoulder when you run the case up into the Die. Then screw the Die in till it contacts the shoulder and then screw it in another quarter turn. Size it and then see if it’s still hard to chamber. If so, screw the Die in another quarter turn. Repeat till the case chambers without force.
 
T.O'Heir and Gaffey

I don't know if the gauge I bought is correctly called a " Head Space Gauge " but that is what they call them. These gauges provide a datum on the shoulder that can be measured on a sized case or a fired case to compare one to the other . In my case there is about a .006" difference . I know I could adjust my FL die till I get the .002" set back I am looking for but I thought the competition shell holders might make it easier.

My long term goal is not to neck size but to do a partial full length resize and get the appropriate shoulder set back. Right now I'm just trying to see if a cartridge that fits the chamber tightly will give me some improvement.

Just an FYI, I have been loading 7 mags (belted cases) with no problems since 1976.
 
"He doesn’t need to, but he WANTS to. What’s so wrong with that, since it’s what most of us are doing or have done."

OK but what I'm saying is this may be an impossible goal with all sorts of frustrating attempts ending in failure. Where's the fun in that?
He already has the "holy grail"- factory ammo that gives excellent accuracy. Considering the caliber, by the time he's found a "better" load, he's burnt the leade out of his barrel. Where's the fun in that?
 
So,Holland and Holland came up with the belted case idea for controlling headspace. Look at the shallow shoulder angle of a 300 H+H and its not a real positive anvil for primer ignition.
That matters if you are about to become toe jam for a buffalo or elephant.

Handloading andcase life were not a consideration.Reliability was. A fairly generous .005 + head clearance is normal headspacing off the belt.

Folks long ago figured out controlling head clearance via the shoulder would give better case life. (stretch rings/head separations).

I agree .002 or .003 head clearance is a good goal.

If you know sizing to theshellholder gives you .006, the Redding shellholders are a nice idea..A .003 or .004 feeler gauge might work between the die and shellholder.

I'm not the ghuru of finding accuracy,but I don't think you will find great gains over a couple thousandths head clearance.

Its great you are getting concentric brass.You might check it after seating.

I assume you trim as necessary and chamfer.

Try brushing out your necks with a nylon bore brush.

You don't say what bullet you use.Those do make a difference.

If the group is the point,try match grade bullets.Then if going to a hunting bullet opens it up a bit,can attribute some to the bullet.

Your powder choice matters.I don't load for 300 WBY,but for example,in 7mm Rem,the RE powders and 4831 were giving good but not great results. H-1000 gave about 1/2 MOA,+ or - better results.

A Fed 215 primer might be good.

Sometimes if Old Betsy seems to not shoot quite as well as she used to copper fouling has built up.

Bench and bag technique can make your 1/2 MOA.

Your initial post said the Rem ammo grouped 3/4 MOA years ago. A couple of things . Was that 10 different 3/4 in groups,or a few that felt good? 3 shot or 5 shot?

If Remington still loads 180 gr 300 Wby factory loads,you might try a box.

I wonder if any other variable is at play.The Rem ammo may shoot 1.5 MOA

I find the older I get,the better I was.

Good luck!
 
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Mobuck, Who says it’s impossible, since the rifle will do it with factory loads. In theory, handloads should work better than factory and be far more consistent than factory lot to factory lot. I haven’t shot a factory round in any rifle I have in almost 40 years. And I have most certainly adjusted FL dies to size the cases to desired size.

I just don’t understand the reluctance of forum folk to help a guy who has asked a simple question. Why tell him what we think he should do when he was clearly saying what he wanted to do and needed to know. And who needs the rant from a few folks on headspace - an argument that never seems to end.
 
Jambuster, You post to Mobuck, My hand loads don't give me better than about 1 1/4" but I think they can. Thus the challenge .

What loads powder,bullets,case,primer and OAL are you loading? I loaded for 300Wby and now loading for 270 Wby.
 
Ok i have used Speer 180 hot cores and 180 Core Lokts. For powder H1000 and Fed 215m primers.

This time I'm going with H4831 , Fed 215m primers , and Hornadat 180 SST'S
 
I suggest you change only one thing at a time.Change two things,you don't learn which worked.

I don't load or shoot 300Wby,so I can't say which powder. You are in the correct burn rates...good powders.

A hunting bullet I have found to be very accurate is the Nosler Ballistic Tip.
The Nosler book is good,too.It recommends an accuracy load.

Nosler does an interesting thing.They offer a Custom Competition match bullet,the Ballistic Tip,and the Accubond.
Generally,they have the same BC,or close. The Accubonds cost a bit more,but they usually shoot the same.

Generally,for most hunting situations the Ballistic tip might be a bit "loose"or lightly constructed for a 300 Wby,IMO.. Opinions vary. For big game loads at magnum velocities,I probably would not choose the Ballistic Tip to hunt with. I'd go Accu-bond. But for load development,the BT is cheaper.The AB has a thicker jacket and its bonded. Same form as the BT.

For myself,within a weight range,those three Noslers perform well for me.

I chose the 200 gr for my 30-338. That bullet has a very good BC.

The Hornady SST's may shoot very well. I think they are also a loose,lightly constructed bullet. I'm not sure they would be the best choice on game at 300 Wby velocity. Maybe the Hornady Interbond? I don't know.
 
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