30-30 Case Neck Crinkling

B

Bucksnort1

New member
All,

I am re-sizing 30-30 cases with a Lee die set for a Thompson Contender. The sizing die is set per instructions for full length sizing. Knowing that too much lube on a case will cause crinkling at the shoulder, I lubricate by lightly touch the lube pad with my fingers then handling cases with those fingers. That is sufficient for sizing; however, on my first of five cases, I had a senior moment and rolled the case on the lube pad which caused crinkling on the case shoulder.

I used some spray acetone cleaner to clean the inside of the sizing die. I let it dry thoroughly then reinstalled per instructions. After correcting my lubing procedure, I still have one case with ever so slight crinkling. The remaining three cases look normal. I did not lube the inside of the case mouth. Could this be the problem?
 
It won't cause any problem, and the cases will reform themselves when fired.
When I use a lube pad, I put one or two drops of lube, and spread that across the pad as much as possible.

When I roll the cases, I don't put any downward pressure and I keep the shoulders hanging over the edge so they get no lube at all

I lube the necks by holding the end against the pad and rotating while pushing down very lightly, which will leave a small ring of lube at the end of the case

I use a nylon brush for the inside of the necks, and usually do very other one, since some will coat the expander
 
Seems like there are too many problems with .30-30s lately; these are usually user-friendly to reload. But I don't know if we really know what your problem is now; perhaps explain it more clearly. You mention "crinkling", does that mean common oil dents around the shoulder from over lubing in the shoulder area (or something else you are defining as crinkling)? To lube with a pad, roll the cases over the pad but then with a shop rag in the off hand wipe off the upper 1/3 or so of the case to keep the lube from accumulating and working upward causing the oil dents. Lubing inside the case necks should have nothing to do with anything unless it is extremely difficult to withdraw the sized case back over the expander button and then it might be called for. But explain why one case is still "crinkled" while the other three are OK.
 
condor bravo,

The oil dents from over lubing is what I'm getting. I've had this happen on other calibers. I borrowed a friend's new dies for this project. He loaded 18 cases, a few days ago. He looked at his and found 2 with the same "oil dents".

Snyper, I know the cases will reform. Thanks.
 
The led farmer,

what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I did not know there are vent holes in sizing dies. I learn something new almost every day. Also, I did not know about lubing from the neck down. Without knowing this, I don't think I've been lubing the neck because of the way I lube cases with my fingers. I could be touching the neck area but probably not. I will pay attention to this in the future.
 
Why are you full length sizing for a Contender?

My best case life and accuracy always came on fired cases that were then neck sized...

The action should 'just' snap shut on a 'reformed' case...I never pushed shoulders back unless the action would not lock...
 
Fired bottleneck cases have shot most accurately (and got many dozens of firings) when properly (correctly?) full length sized, bumping shoulders back a couple thousandths, for decades in all sorts of firearms. I've no reason to think it's any different with a Contender.

As soon as the case starts binding the action when it's closed, accuracy starts getting worse. As Martin Hull, Sierra Bullets first good ballistic tech, often said; "for best accuracy, the case has to fit the chamber like a (piece of solid excrement) in a violin case" (or punch bowl, his other reference). Enough clearance so it does not bind the breech closing in any way.
 
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Led Farmer,

I'm not lubing the necks but I am now lubing inside the mouth. I cleaned the breather hole then resized a few cases. Some had hardly noticeable dents but one had noticeable dents. I noticed the O ring in the lock ring is directly over the breather hole so I moved the lock ring up but this did not completely solve the problem.

My next experiment was to back the die out a couple of turns so I'm not full length sizing and not neck sizing only. I do not see lube dents at this position. I loaded two full length sized cartridges and two with the die up a couple of turns. Next week, when I can get my hands on the Contender, I will see if these chamber properly. If they do, especially the two sized with the die up a couple of turns, I'll load the remaining cases. What say you?
 
i say you shouldn't neck size with a full length sizing die read about why here

if you are still getting lube dents you are most likely using too much lube still. a little goes along way, so ease up on the lube until you find the sweet spot. post a pic of your dents if you can
 
led farmer,

Thanks for the information. I read the recommendation and understand what is written. I only loaded two cases with my method, as I stated so I won't be doing a lot of re-work.

You addressed lubing again. I'm using what I consider to be the absolute minimum amount of lube. As stated in my original posting, I lightly touch my lube pad with the fingers on my left hand then pick up the case to move it to the press. I feel you are correct in saying it is the lubricant. I've loaded 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Weatherby mag, 30-06, 223, and 243 and I've never had this problem. I guess I need to find what you call the, "sweet spot".

Thanks again.
 
As Martin Hull, Sierra Bullets first good ballistic tech, often said; "for best accuracy, the case has to fit the chamber like a (piece of solid excrement) in a violin case" (or punch bowl, his other reference).
Click to expand...

Bart B. You said he said it. I can't believe he was silly enough to say something like that. Then there are the three reloaders, shooters, gun owners etc. that are silly enough to repeat the quote.

A mouse tur& in a violin casa will fit like a violin case like my hand-me-down shirts, only where they touch. Those that quote Martin Hull also spend a lot of time preaching bumping the shoulder .002", I have little to no respect for those that have two standards. either the case fits like my hand me down shirts/tur& in a violin case or somewhere between minimum length ande go-gage length.

Then there is the case .002" shorter from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case than the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey
 
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Led Farmer,

Ok, I finished all 100 cases. In all, I have nine cases with lube denting some of which are barely noticeable. On the last 70-ish, since my last posting to you, I had three cases with dents. I did what you suggested and found the sweet spot, which was to touch the lube pad after about four or five cases.

I have one more question for you. Does the type of lubricant have an effect on this situation? I've been using RCBS liquid lube and lanolin that has not been diluted. Both have about the same viscosity.
 
Good question! I have no idea :) but I'm guessing yes

I have only ever used Hornady one-shot and never had a stuck case so I never saw the need to try anything else
 
Between Pogy and Led, it seems like we are talking about two different things. Isn't One-Shot a spray-on while I thought Pogy was using a roll on pad lube and they do behave differently. Or maybe you can spray a One-Shot onto a pad. But at any rate I find the one-shots only marginal and use the RCBS case lube 2 for everything. And it will cause oil dents unless the upper 1/3 or so of the cartridge case is wiped off after lubing. It is not necessary to lube the neck and shoulder areas, and even somewhat below the shoulder.
 
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Condor Bravo, yes, we're using two different products. My thinking is, RCBS and lanolin are more viscous than perhaps a spray. The less viscous material may not cause any or as many dents as the other. A couple years ago, I bought a special die for use with belted cases. The seller suggested I use a high pressure lube and recommended Imperial Sizing Die lubricant. He said it is good under high pressure conditions. It's a paste material in a small tin. I bought some but have not used it. Some suggest using Heet mixed with lanolin. This would certainly reduce the viscosity of the lanolin.

In case you're wondering, Pogybait is Army talk for junk food. In the Navy, it's Geedunk (with a hard G sound). I'm not sure exactly how you spell Geedunk but you know how the Navy is. After all, CVN = aircraft carrier. Go figure. Just more useless trivia you don't need.
 
We do not recommend neck sizing with the full length sizing die because
Click to expand...

A quote from Lee.

When critiquing, look for words or groups of words like "We do not recommend neck sizing etc.", Lee did not suggest neck sizing with a full length sizing die could not be done, they said they do not recommend neck sizing with a full length sizing die. I can not blame them, they sell dies and anything having to do with a case neck is directed to the collet die.

I can use a 308 W full length sizing die to size the neck of a 30/06 case without touching the shoulder and or case body. I can use a 30/06 full length sizing die to size the neck of a 30/06 case without touching the shoulder and or case body by adjusting the die to size the neck only, not all of it, just most of it.
There is an advantage to neck sizing part of the neck, the unsized part of the neck can help center the case in the chamber.

Then there is that other philosophy of case sizing: As Lee said the die body contacts the case body before the shoulder of the die contacts the shoulder of the case. I count on it, I control the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case. There are times I use a feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder for long chambers.

Again, some of my favorite dies are short dies.

F. Guffey
 
Guffey,

I'm not smart enough to delve into rocket surgery or brain science. I'm having to read your description several time to try to get my mind's eye around what you wrote about the FL -06 die being used to neck size a case.

It's kinda like when I watch a documentary about Einstein and his General Theory of Relativity. I have to watch it several times to understand it or watch/listen to someone else explain what was said.

Tell me if I have this right. You back off on the sizing die so only the upper part of the die and the expander ball touch the case or, you leave the die in its proper position then only raise the ram enough to neck size. If you are only neck sizing, you may not be setting the shoulder back enough for the round to chamber properly, which I believe is what Lee is saying. As Ricky would say to Lucy, esplain yourself.
 
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