2nd amendment challenge. Help me out.

C

Colubrid

New member
I was on a "non" gun board when the subject came up. Is this true what this guy is saying? This is from a non gun board but most of the people there are probably antis.:
the constitution of the united states DOES NOT guarentee a civilians right to own guns... It only guarentees the rights of the states to raise a militia...

The right for civilians to own weapons is addressed in the individual state constitutions...

Sorry... not tryin to start an argument, just the attorney to be comin out in me... lol
 
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Ask him who the "people" are who are mentioned often in the first 10 Amendments (including the 2nd), usually referred to as the BOR. The "people" in the 2nd are the same "people" as those mentioned in the 1st.
 
The D.C. circuit Court of Appeals seem to think it refers to an individual right. A texas court just ruled that it referred to an individual right. Tell him to actually read the history of the Second Amendment before offering advice on a subject he doesn't have the first clue about. There are a ton of pro
2A websites that have evidence to refute any claim that the Second Amendment protects a collective or state right.
 
First ask that person to read the states consistutions for the 13 states, then the rest of the state consistutions. Second ask that preson to read the Federalist Papers which were the arguements for the Consistution and Bill of Rights. Third ask if he understand the English used to write the Bill of Rights, if those doesn't convince him he is wrong then he is convinced of a lie and will never accept the truth. People who are convinced of the lie will never change and are not worth wasting time on.
 
First ask that person to read the states consistutions for the 13 states, then the rest of the state consistutions.
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But he said that the personal RKBA is protected by the State Constitutions ... he just said that it isn't protected by the US Constitution.
 
There's two ways you get at this one. 1) you find out what the framers really intended to say, by reading their works, or 2) you figure it out logically from the wording of the bill of rights.

1) A big ol' list.
"Who are the militia ? Are they not ourselves ? The militias of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared to any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the solider, are the birth-right of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or the state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
Tench Coxe (1755-1824)

(Tench Coxe wrote the 2nd Amendment)

What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty . . . Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.
- Representative Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts
(from 1 Annals of Congress at 750, 17 August 1789):

Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't.
- Ben Franklin

The best we can hope for, concerning the people at large, is that they be properly armed. It is absolutely clear that the Bill of Rights was meant to apply to individuals NOT to collective bodies.
- Alexander Hamilton:

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. . . . The great object is that every man be armed. . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. ... The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. "
- Thomas Jefferson

"Disarm the people- that is the best and most effective way to enslave them"
"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. A well-regulated Militia, composed of the people trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
- George Mason:

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property ... horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"a well-regulated militia composed of the freeholder, citizen and husbandman, who take up their arms to preserve their property as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
- Josiah Quincy

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance they are the peoples liberty teeth. A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour."
- George Washington
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and 2)Look at the wordings - the Bill of rights is a list of "THOU SHALT NOT's" None of them give or grant rights. The bill of Rights protects rights. Also, note that the "people" have rights, while the goverment has "powers."

The framers really wanted us to realize that our rights are not a privelege that can be taken away. Our rights are our rights. That's all.

The wording in the bill of rights is a whole lot more precise and intentional than you are led to believe. 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, and 9th talk about "the people" You can't just say "well, when the founders used the word 'people' in the 1st, 4th, 8th, and 9th meant individuals, but somehow magically means collectives in the 2nd." Nope. Ain't gonna cut it. The 10th amendment recogizes a federal system for what it is, so states are states, people are people, and militias are not armies.


And if you really, really, really want to trump @$$, quote Article I, Section 10, Paragraph 3 of the Constitution which reads: "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, ...

The national guard is federal - based on federal grounds, paid by federal funds. It's called the "ARMY National Guard," passed by an act of congress in 1917 (correct me if i'm wrong here), more than 100 years after the fact.
 
And 3) Webster's Dictionary.

1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service

2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
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Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of "American Usage and Style: The Consensus" in an exchange with J. Neil Schulman posits this example of usage from the period of the writing if the Constitution:

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."


Weigh the ‘common’ (though not original) attempts to make the first clause in the Second amendment a restrictive statement.

This example has been used in other places that I cannot recall at the moment to illustrate the weak analysis that arose in the 20th century to try and distort the original intent and meaning of the second amendment.

Even Tribe's standard text on the constitution has been revised to indicate the Second Ammendment is an individual right, though subject to 'reasonable' restriction (as are most rights enumerated).
The definition of 'reasonable' is left as an exercise for the reader (and the lower courts).:D
 
Colubrid,

Suggested Reading list:
Quotes on the 2nd Amendment
Thomas Jefferson on personal arms
The Unabridged Second Amendment
The Embarassing Second Amendment


Applesanity,

"Who are the militia ? Are they not ourselves ? The militias of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared to any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible instrument of the solider, are the birth-right of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or the state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
Tench Coxe (1755-1824)

(Tench Coxe wrote the 2nd Amendment)
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As I recall, it was James Madison who was both the architect of most of the constitution (drawing on many of Thomas Paine's ideas) as well as many of the BoR, including the 2nd Amendment.

The best we can hope for, concerning the people at large, is that they be properly armed. It is absolutely clear that the Bill of Rights was meant to apply to individuals NOT to collective bodies.
- Alexander Hamilton:
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Do you have a source reference (on-line or not) for this quote?

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance they are the peoples liberty teeth. A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour."
- George Washington
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I was under the impression that this "liberty teeth" quote was bogus, unless you can cite a historical reference.
 
Motion to sticky this thread. Stuff like this gets brought up all the time.

A nice convenient thread that shows all the constitutional arguments for the 2nd Amendment.

I don't have the sources to back up most of those quotes. I've just been collecting them over time. I'll start on that, but if other members can help me out....

James Madison, The Federalist No. 46

Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.
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Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
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Noah Webster, "Father of American Scholarship and Education," the responsible for the dictionary of the same name, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution

Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.
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U.S. Supreme Court, United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259 (1990)

"the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.
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One of the best arguments against the so-called "collective rights" theory is to challenge anyone who is adamant in their anti-gun (anti-individual rights) stance to do the following;

Find any direct quote or reference in the Constitutional debates that shows the "right to keep and bear arms" is a "collective" right or a right enjoyed only by a State and not "the people".

Offer to buy them an expensive steak dinner. Or offer them $200. Don't worry about having to pay up, since no one has yet found any evidence that the admendment referred to anything but the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

"A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt - An Autobiography, 1913
 
just the attorney to be comin out in me...
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Now whats wrong with this picture ? Your a lawyer and you need us to tell you about the 2nd amendment ?



Sounds a lot like the emails I get from Sarah Brady's organization... Beware, my friend, beware.
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I agree !!!!
 
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