2nd Amendment and PTSD?

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beeker77

New member
If a veteran is diagnosed with PTSD symptoms by a competent medical authority and determined eligible for appropriate VA disability compensation for that condition, but otherwise 'mentally stable', is he/she still fully entitled to 2nd Amendment rights? In other words, obtain a CHL, possess firearms, etc.?
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I don't know about now but a couple of years ago my son passed NICS. He has PTSD and TBI. He got a nice 9mm but his wife made him give it up. So sad.
 
I think you have to look into your state's laws if you are asking about a concealed handgun license. http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-...session-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

In general, I would think that a diagnosis of PTSD is not enough to deny a license depending on severity. One thing often looked at is if it was so severe to require involuntary commitment to a mental institution for a certain period of time - is the person dysfunctional or violent.
 
The actual phrases are, "adjudicated as a mental defective" and "committed to a mental institution." Those phrases are defined in 27 CFR 478.11:

Adjudicated as a mental defective. (a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:
(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or
(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.
(b) The term shall include—
(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.
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Committed to a mental institution. A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.
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You'll notice the determination has to be made by a court or similar authority, usually against the will of the person in question. It cannot be arbitrarily made by a doctor or facility without some sort of formal, legal hearing.

A simple diagnosis of PTSD doesn't meet that criteria. Nor does voluntary participation in mental-health services.
 
The rest of the story, however, is apparently that the VA reports veterans being treated for PTSD to NICS, thus making them into prohibited persons. All without benefit of due process or that inconvenient "adjudication" stuff.

It's a real problem, because PTSD is where the money is these days, so the VA gets more money if they can show that they are treating more veterans for PTSD. So they have an incentive to diagnose and classify clients as having PTSD ... thereby swelling the ranks of veterans being reported to NICS.

No, I am not certain that the VA routinely reports all PTSD patients/clients to NICS. But I've been using the nearby VA hospital for 15 or 20 years, and that's what I've been told. I'm certain enough of it in my own mind that there's no way I would EVER go to the VA for any mental health issue. And, no matter how bad a day I might be having, any time I go for an appointment my answer to the "How are you feeling today" question (which is where they look to catch PTSD cases) is "Just fine, thanks, and how are you doing?"
 
The state laws will be the catch as several now have reporting requirements if the condition is thought to be threatening as in the NY SAFE act.

Provisions Related to Persons with Mental Illness

Amendments to the Mental Hygiene Law will help ensure that persons who are mentally ill and dangerous cannot retain or obtain a firearm. First, mental health records that are currently sent to NIDCS for a federal background check will also be housed in a New York State database. A new Section 9.46 of the Mental Hygiene Law will require mental health professionals, in the exercise of reasonable professional judgment, to report if an individual they are treating is likely to engage in conduct that will cause serious harm to him- or herself or others. A good faith decision about whether to report will not be a basis for any criminal or civil liability. When a Section 9.46 report is made, the Division of Criminal Justice Services will determine whether the person possesses a firearms license and, if so, will notify the appropriate local licensing official, who must suspend the license. The person's firearms will then be removed.
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http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S2230-2013

Other states have similar provisions.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
The state laws will be the catch as several now have reporting requirements if the condition is thought to be threatening as in the NY SAFE act.
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Not sure, but I don't think the VA is subject to state laws. I know VA doctors don't have to be licensed in the state where the hospital they work in is located. In any event, the VA was reporting PTSD cases to NICS before Sandy Hook. It's been an on-going discussion among veterans for some time.
 
In any event, the VA was reporting PTSD cases to NICS before Sandy Hook. It's been an on-going discussion among veterans for some time.
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This is conspiracy theory trash brought to you by the likes of Alex Jones.

A diagnosis of PTSD alone will not get a veteran reported to NICS. The sad fact is that many uninformed veterans with medical problems refuse to use the VA because of misinformation disguised as fact.

i'm a long time veterans advocate. i know dozens of veterans who are diagnosed with PTSD, none have ever been reported to NICS.

When General Shinseki took over the VA he stopped reporting veterans with actuaries to NICS. Not sure what the new guy is doing.



http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=34265
 
thallub said:
This is conspiracy theory trash brought to you by the likes of Alex Jones.
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Alex Jones ... and me.

I've been a client of the VA system for 20 years or so. I've already acknowldged that I have no first-hand proof that the VA is reporting PTSD patients to NICS, but I have heard a lot of discussion about it, among veterans, and none of it from Alex Jones.

You believe what you choose to believe, I'll believe what I choose to believe. Personally, I choose not to trust the VA with my RKBA.
 
Except for the years i worked overseas most of my medical treatment has come from the VA since my retirement from the US Army in 1979. Am currently rated at 80 percent disabled by the VA.

I've already acknowldged that I have no first-hand proof that the VA is reporting PTSD patients to NICS, but I have heard a lot of discussion about it, among veterans, and none of it from Alex Jones.
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You wrote this:

The rest of the story, however, is apparently that the VA reports veterans being treated for PTSD to NICS, thus making them into prohibited persons. All without benefit of due process or that inconvenient "adjudication" stuff.
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Then you made this statement:

In any event, the VA was reporting PTSD cases to NICS before Sandy Hook.
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i'm a veterans advocate. False information regarding veterans and PTSD bugs me because veterans with severe problems hear these latrine rumors and refuse to visit the VA for diagnosis and treatment. Several times each year i hear "Obama is going to take my guns if i'm diagnosed with PTSD".

The Veterans Medical Administration has not submitted any disqualifying records on VA beneficiaries to the FBI for inclusion in NICS for any medical/psychiatric reason (like PTSD), unless those veterans had been involuntarily committed under a state court order to a VA medical facility because they posed a danger to themselves or others. In those cases, the state in which the court resides would submit the disqualifying record to the FBI, if such a submission would be appropriate and permissible under state law.
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http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/0...ked-somewhat/#screenhunter_1266-feb-25-14-05/
 
A good faith decision about whether to report will not be a basis for any criminal or civil liability. When a Section 9.46 report is made, the Division of Criminal Justice Services will determine whether the person possesses a firearms license and, if so, will notify the appropriate local licensing official, who must suspend the license. The person's firearms will then be removed.
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Don't you just love the good folk of the NY government? They work so hard to protect...us???

Note that the DOC is in law, absolved from responsibility, report or not, but when a report is made if you have a license, they WILL come and take your guns. NO COURT, no board, no committee, no opportunity for you (or your lawyer) to argue your case, and (unless contained in a different section I didn't see) NO REQUIREMENT TO EVEN INFORM YOU A REPORT HAS BEEN FILED. The first time you find out about it might be when the SWAT team does a no-knock on your home (because you have guns, and are dangerous).

And we know how often those work out well, particularly when done on folks who do not ever suspect they are "guilty" of anything. Doesn't take a very clear crystal ball to see dead cops and dead family members directly attributable to the law's requirements.

As to the VA reporting to NCIS or whomever, I have to proof, either way, but I would not be surprised to find that they were. I DO know that 15 years ago, the VA was requiring some vets to get rid of their firearms (and weapons) in order to receive benefits/ treatment.

Might not have been an official policy, might not have been "approved", but I know of a case where it happened. His wife came to me to help find buyers for the guns & bow they had to get rid of. Personally, I think they lied to him, and he felt he had no other choice but to go along. Any way, I only bring this up as evidence that the attitude, if not an "unofficial" policy has been going on for some time.
 
The NY SAFE act is the epitome of gun control. Methinks NJ gun law is not that draconian.

Might not have been an official policy, might not have been "approved", but I know of a case where it happened. His wife came to me to help find buyers for the guns & bow they had to get rid of. Personally, I think they lied to him, and he felt he had no other choice but to go along.
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The old man probably asked the VA appoint his wife actuary to manage his VA affairs. After the appointment was made-Tilt!!! The VA then reported the veteran to NICS.

The vast majority of VA patients with actuaries asked the VA to appoint someone to manage their VA affairs, usually a spouse or close relative. In a very few cases the VA will appoint a professional actuary, usually for a veteran with no close relatives. You would not believe the horror stories of actuaries ripping old veterans. Recently we an old disabled veteran in Lawton was ripped off by his daughter.
 
I would love for someone to post one of those VA letters we have been hearing about. If anyone has a copy and black out the personal data, that would be very helpful.
 
thallub said:
i'm a veterans advocate. False information regarding veterans and PTSD bugs me because veterans with severe problems hear these latrine rumors and refuse to visit the VA for diagnosis and treatment. Several times each year i hear "Obama is going to take my guns if i'm diagnosed with PTSD".
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I've dealt with the veterans' "advocate" office at my VA hospital, too..

You believe what you choose to believe, I'll believe what I choose to believe. Personally, I choose not to trust the VA with my RKBA.

(Oh, I said that already.)
 
Back to the op..
If a veteran is diagnosed with PTSD symptoms by a competent medical authority and determined eligible for appropriate VA disability compensation for that condition, but otherwise 'mentally stable', is he/she still fully entitled to 2nd Amendment rights?
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If a veteran is diagnosed with PTSD symptoms by a competent medical authority
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Who decides who the competent authority is, and what PTSD is??


and determined eligible for appropriate VA disability compensation for that condition,
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The VA would decide this, based on their standards.

but otherwise 'mentally stable', is he/she still fully entitled to 2nd Amendment rights?
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Other wise mentally stable?? Again, something for which there is a wide range of possible opinion. I could only see this being a case by case evaluation, no blanket standard could be fair to everyone.

The law has certain specific requirements to meet to make you a prohibited person for firearms ownership. Those, and only those are what matter for legal ownership & possession.

Using any other criteria is exceeding existing law, and therefore illegal, as I see it.

The real and present danger is the slippery slope of PTSD diagnoses, and what constitutes "disabled" etc. And how it will be applied to legal cases.

There's a difference between a "shell shocked" combat vet and a someone who's life is screwed up because their grandma died when they were five, but I've heard some people put both under the umbrella of PTSD.
 
Thallub: is "actuary" the accurate word you mean. I thought an actuary was a mathematician who made statistical forecasts. Do you mean "fiduciary" perhaps?
 
I can't get to it on line and I don't feel like violating the copyright and keyboarding the entire article, but the July issue of the NRA's America's 1st Freedom magazine has an article entitled "Disarming Of Veterans Brings Further Shame To Troubled VA."

In mid-April, Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, brought some renewed attention to the plight of a growing number of veterans who have been unjustly stripped of their Second Amendment protected rights. In an April 14, 2015, letter to then-Attorney General Eric Holder, Grassley to the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to task for over-reaching policies that have resulted in the names of well over 100,000 veterans and dependents being placed in the FBI's National Instant Background Check System (NICS) as prohibited from possessing firearms.
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The topic of this article was not PTSD specifically, and included the VA's more recent policy of reporting veterans who -- for whatever reason -- have had a fiduciary appointed to assist with their financial affairs. The article speaks to VA policies of reporting veterans (and dependents) to NICS without having gone through the trouble and bother of following the law regarding adjudication and/or commitment.

So, unless Alex Jones is now writing for the NRA, I'd say I would rather be safe than sorry. As I posted above, I don't feel like entrusting my 2A rights to the VA.
 
Do you mean "fiduciary" perhaps?
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Yes, brain malfunction on my part.


The topic of this article was not PTSD specifically, and included the VA's more recent policy of reporting veterans who -- for whatever reason -- have had a fiduciary appointed to assist with their financial affairs.
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This is not a recent policy. It was first done in the late 90s when the Clinton administration dumped the names of about 90,000 veterans with fiduciaries into NICS.

General Shinseki refused to report veterans with fiduciaries to NICS.

The vast majority of veterans with fiduciaries have asked the VA for someone, usually a relative, to be appointed to manage their VA benefits. In cases where the veteran has no relatives, or no relatives are interested in managing the veterans affairs, the VA will appoint a fiduciary.

Selection Process (Bold mine):

During the selection process, the VA will first seek to qualify the individual you desire to serve as your fiduciary.
The fiduciary selection is based on an assessment of the qualifications of the proposed fiduciary. When seeking a fiduciary the following individuals may be considered:
•A spouse or family member
•Court-appointed fiduciaries
•Another interested party, or
•A professional fiduciary

An assessment of the qualifications of a proposed fiduciary includes, but is not limited to:
•The willingness to serve and abide by all agreements
•An interview with a VA representative
•Credit report review
•An inquiry into the criminal background, and
•Interviews with character witnesses
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I't not like the VA is will nilly appointing thousands of fiduciaries and taking veterans gun rights away: The vast majority of fiduciaries are appointed at the veterans request.

The VA is telling veterans up front that their gun rights go if they request a fiduciary.

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act prohibits you from purchasing, possessing, receiving or transporting a firearm or ammunition if you have “been adjudicated as a mental defective or been committed to a mental institution.” In compliance with this act, VA reports the names of incompetent beneficiaries to the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI), which then adds the names to a database called the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Gun dealers must check NICS for the name of a potential buyer before selling him/her a firearm. You may be fined and/or imprisoned if you knowingly violate this law. You may apply to VA for relief of firearms prohibitions imposed by the law by submitting your request to the VA. The VA will determine whether such relief is warranted.
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http://www.benefits.va.gov/fiduciary/beneficiary.asp

i've belonged to the NRA for well over 50 years. The NRA and other gun rights organizations are demagoguing on this issue.

i also belong to the DAV, The VFW, The American Legion and the National EOD Association.
 
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