2nd Am. rights; where do they come from?(topic- Gun ownership)

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oldscot3

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The three governing documents of the United States are the the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights (which contains the 2nd Amendment).

Each are tied together, supporting and reinforcing the others. First was the Declaration of Independence which states in the second and third sentences, that all men are created equal and get their liberty(including gun posession and use) from God and also that they are governed by men only by their consent. My 2nd Amendment rights were given to me by Him and I won't let any man take them away with my consent.

The founding fathers had no problem naming the Creator as God and no American should either.

There... I said it, and I won't take it back
 
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I think your ideas might be more widely accepted if expressed as Natural Law. While I am no expert I believe it is the belief that certain freedoms are simply part of human nature. So, whether you are Christian, Jew, Muslim or some other belief system you can understand the fundamental right to self defense.
 
I wish they were my ideas: the Declaration of Independence was written and rolled out almost 250 years ago.

As for being widely accepted, they are and have been, the law of the land for well over 200 years.
 
Getting stuff from God should be named in the Bible. Does the Bible specify a second amendment? What about just unalienable rights?

The right to bear arms is given to Americans by our constitution.

Plenty of disarmed Christians all over the world.
 
The three governing documents of the United States are the the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights
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I was under the impression that the Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with "governing documents", it was a statement that the Colonies were no longer subject to the rule of the King of England. A "Dear John" letter, if you will.

The Constitution, on the other hand, has all the rules for governing the nation. The Bill of Rights is comprised of the Amendments to the Constitution that would otherwise have had no limits on the power of those governing. As I understand it, the Constitution has deep roots in the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights has ties to the Rights of Man from the Humanist movement. Freedom of speech, right to self-defense and to revolt against unjust rule, freedom in the person (no searches, no self-incrimination), freedom of thought (freedom of religion and freedom of expression), and freedom from usurpation of power.
 
huntinaz said:
The right to bear arms is given to Americans by our constitution.
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I'm afraid you are off the mark on this. The Constitution (the Second Amendment) does not give us the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment recognizes that the right already exists, and [supposedly] guarantees us that our government won't restrict or take away ("infringe") that pre-existing right.
 
Scorch said:
The three governing documents of the United States are the the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights
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I was under the impression that the Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with "governing documents", it was a statement that the Colonies were no longer subject to the rule of the King of England. A "Dear John" letter, if you will.

The Constitution, on the other hand, has all the rules for governing the nation.
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Correct. The Declaration of Independence has nothing whatsoever with governing the United States. The Declaration was written years before there was a nation to be governed.

The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. So we're really looking at one document, not three.
 
BarryLee said:
I think your ideas might be more widely accepted if expressed as Natural Law. While I am no expert I believe it is the belief that certain freedoms are simply part of human nature.
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I agree. A very few authors supported the radical and bloody ideas that turn up again in the French Revolution, but the bulk of the american and English ideas of the time were tempered by the prior century of English political unrest, enlightenment (distinguishable from the continental enlightenment) and a religious re-awakening during that period.

Many authors of that period were focused on man's inherent qualities and how to arrange government so as not to conflict with those qualities. They didn't invent that kind of analysis; it had been present in Aristotle and Thomism. That focus goes a long way to explaining their result.
 
Those who signed the Declaration of Independence believed certain unalienable rights were bestowed on man by their creator. And some of those men also took part in drafting and signing the Constitution.

The original Constitution wasnt drafted, signed, and approved by the 12 state delegations until about 11 years after Declaration of Independence. It was yet another year before the Constitution was ratified by 9 States and became effective.

The original Constitution included no amendments. A year later a collection of 12 amendments were proposed and referred to as the Bill of Rights. After another 2 years, 10 of the 12 proposed amendments are ratified and become part of the Constitution. So there was a period of 15 years between the Declaration of Independence an the 2nd amendment.
 
I was under the impression that the Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with "governing documents", it was a statement that the Colonies were no longer subject to the rule of the King of England. A "Dear John" letter, if you will.
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Yes and no. If it were only that, it would have probably begun with Dear King George... it didn't though. It went further and put all governments, current and future, on notice that restrictions on liberties that were natural, God-given rights wouldn't be tolerated. The fourth sentence warns that when governments do such, the governed should reject it and form a new government.

My point in listing it as a "governing" document is that it never lost its purpose and became void. It is a general statement on liberty that still applies to this day. It supports the Constitution which is more specific and sets up the branches of government, lays out how laws are to be made etc. etc.

If you don't want to call it a governing document, that's ok, but to say it has nothing to do with Constitution would be a mistake.
 
I'm afraid you are off the mark on this. The Constitution (the Second Amendment) does not give us the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment recognizes that the right already exists, and [supposedly] guarantees us that our government won't restrict or take away ("infringe") that pre-existing right.
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Well, what they said, was that the 'Creator' endowed all MEN with unalienable rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Then they say to secure these rights (life, liberty and happiness) that men shall institute a government that derives from its people etc. Then they wrote later (see post above by BBarn), and without the consultation of a creator a bill of rights that includes the right of the GOVERNED to bear arms as a facet by which to protect those unalienable rights specified as endowed by a Creator. The Bill of Rights is the first time we hear of the right to bear arms.



Bible says jack about firearms. Preamble where they outline unalienable rights, says jack about the right to bear arms.

The rights specified as being endowed by a creator has nothing to do with firearms. The 'Creator' has certainly never asserted the right of all men to keep and bear arms. The right to bear arms is given by the second amendment of the constitution to the citizens of the United States of America.

And that is what is important anyway, philosophy aside. What the Creator wills for you matters not at all to your neighbor or your Government. See history of every civilization ever.
 
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The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. So we're really looking at one document, not three.
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Yes and no. The Bill of Rights was crafted to get a few, hold out states to ratify the Constitution by spelling out specifically certain rights or liberties (thank goodness they did). It is part of the Constitution, hence the use of numbered "amendments" but it does have some self-identity. For example when you look it up, you do so by typing in "The Bill of Rights".
 
The rights specified as being endowed by a creator has nothing to do with firearms. The 'Creator' has certainly never asserted the right of all men to keep and bear arms.
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Wrong! Of course firearms didn't exist at the time the Bible was written, but all sorts of weapons did. The personal defense weapon of the day was a sword and Jesus himself recommended universal sword ownership. Luke 22:36.
 
Wrong! Of course firearms didn't exist at the time the Bible was written, but all sorts of weapons did. The personal defense weapon of the day was a sword and Jesus himself recommended universal sword ownership. Luke 22:36.
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Luke 22:36 guarantees nothing about firearms or unalienable rights or anything at all, and is out of context to our freedoms or rights as citizens of this nation.

Then why didn't they write:

Amendment 2:

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of the fulfillment of the Scripture in Him, the recommendation by the Creator of the people to keep and bear swords shall not be infringed
 
Creator or not, I am a biological creature on this planet and I as an individual biological creature have the same rights to defense as any other creature using objects around me or on my person. Various rulers and governments may have a dislike of this fact, and they may choose to punish people for exercising this right. Everyone has the right, natural rights cannot be granted from a government, they can only be taken away.
 
Just to remind folks, that the existence of a particular deity or validity of the 'truth' of a particular brand of religion as regards the existence of their postulated supernatural entities is not a topic for us.

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It is not my intent to promote any particular religion here, I am not an evangelist for Christianity on this site. To deny any mention of God however, in the context of our country's organization and history (ie the 2nd amendment) is heavy handed in my opinion and if that is how you intend to administer this forum, then I'm out.
 
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