243 problems

R

richja10

Inactive
Hello all. I am I need of some good advice. I bought a Remington 700 sps varmint chambered in 243. Out of the box with any kind of factory ammo, the thing would group 4" - 5" at 100 yards. The first thing I changed was the stock. I now have a Boyds thumbhole. The next thing was the trigger. I replaced the I don't care what Remington says trigger because the xmark pro was just not adjustable with a timmney. So after those mods the groups were still not very good, a little better but not good at all. I started reloading and got the groups to right around 3". What could be wrong. I've checked and rechecked the scope base, and rings. I've even swapped scopes with my savage axis that shoots 1/4" moa all day long(but that's a different thread). I'm using a weaver t36 scope. No complaints about the scope its perfect for what I wanted.. ..Now the other day I went to the range and to my shock the groups we defiantly well under 2", still not what the axis can do but I was mystified. What could be different. Then I realized that I hadn't cleaned the gun for about 120 rounds which is highly unusual for me, I usually clean after every session. Could the gun being that dirty have been the difference? And will it get even better if I never clean it except for a bore snake. Also on some of my reloads they would group far right for some and far left for other by about 6", what could that mean? And a question I know you guys will ask is what's the twist and what weight bullet am I using. Its a 26" 1 in 9.125" and I've tried every weight bullet from 55g all the way to 105g. I still don't know what it likes but 85 and under shoot better than 85 and up.
 
Maybe a couple things to look for: Proper shooting technique is one,(most won't admit it) and not exact bullet powder combo that rifle likes. Also check to see if barrel is totally Free-floated, if not start there, oh and check proper stock screw torque.
 
Some quick thoughts - the usual suspects!

Reading your post makes me think you are applying a "shotgun" approach and not really thinking this through systematically. I suggest you make one change at a time starting with the simplest (and cheapest). When you say "out of the box" I assume that it is a new rifle. You should expect 1" groups with a new 243 so something is not right with 3" groups.

Here are some suggestions off the top of my head in no particular order. I am sure others will give more especially in relation to your Remington which I am not familiar with.
  1. Check the tightness of the screws holding the barrel on. If there are 3 the centre one is normally for the trigger guard or magazine and should not be as tight as the outer 2
  2. Check that the barrel is free floating all the way along its length by running a sheet of paper up and down it.
  3. Check the scope screws are tight
  4. Check that the muzzle has not been damaged - nicks will throw bullets off course
  5. Is the action bedded properly? No high spots?
  6. No offence, but have someone else shoot the rifle to see if he gets the same results as you.
  7. Ask on the forum what factory loads others have found shoot well in your Remington. Use that as your reference load when testing the effects of changes you make. (BTW my 243 likes a 95 gr projectile).
  8. I don't know what bedding your Remington has but a proper bedding job can make a big difference
  9. Try a few rounds off a bench rest or gun sled. I assume you are using a good sandbag. Try a butt bag too. You are not out to test your shooting skill but the accuracy of your rifle so try to eliminate as many shooting variables as possible.
  10. Give the barrel a really good clean with Boretech Eliminator or other good bore cleaner.
  11. At the start of a shooting session fire a couple of fouling shots first. And remember to let your barrel cool down after a few shots.

Enough to be going on with. Persevere and you will get there.

David
 
A dirty barrel will shoot different for sure,but 6 inches right and left?. That's not a dirty barrel problem. AS above posted with one glitch- Check action screws.
The ( if 3 screws) rear one is the trigger guard screw. middle and front need to be set proper. This will sound dumb,but 6 inches right and left,to me seems like cheek weld problem maybe. As I always say--243-- IMR4064 powder, there is no other powder for the 243. If the spread comes after a few shots ( barrel warm up ) then check your free float with paper as suggested.
 
Thanks guys. I have to tell you that I've tried most of what you suggest, one change at a time. I should bring it to a gunsmith and have them check the barrel. I have been waiting to see this one guy at the range to have him try the gun. He has been the only one who wasn't full of crap. But still there is no reason a $300 savage axis will shoot rings around my remmy. I've tried several different powders and all sorts of projectiles. The action is not bedded to the Boyds stock yet that's for over the winter but the barrel is free floated. That was the major problem with the plastic factory stock. I shoot from a bench only with a Caldwell rock br in front and sand bags in the back. Not sure what you meant by a shotgun approach but at my sporting clays club, all the guys and gals I shoot with tell me it looks like I'm shooting a rifle. Lol. But regardless every single rifle I own shoots sub moa at 100 except for this 700. O and I only shoot factory stuff to get the brass. Its not worth going for tight groups with the factory stuff.
 
Its really weird. The other day for example, I was shooting hand loads and the were all getting on the 6" target at 100 yd and then I switched to fiocchi 70 grain and they hit high right by 6"+ and then I shot federal fusion 95 grain and it hit high left by 6+" and follow up shots are all over the place. I switch back to hand loads and the get on the paper again but still erratic. I really don't think I have a flinch cuz like I said, none of my others shoot like this.
 
Powders I've used are:
IMR 303, 4064
Varget
Vihtavuori n150

I have these but haven't tried them yet:
IMR 4320
Hodgdon superformance
Winchester 760

I used federal #210 large rifle primers
I have 4 brands of brass but head stamps all match.

RCBS single stage press.
 
But still there is no reason a $300 savage axis will shoot rings around my remmy.

Oh yes there is.:D. Most accurate brand rifle out of the box made. I have 9 of them now. I have been shooting for over 40 years now,Tried almost all brands ( with the exception of the new ones on the market). Sold or traded everything I had and went with Savage on all of them. Not looking for variaty in life just a rifle that puts the bullet where I want it and Savage is the answer to that. As you can tell I am a Savage Big time Fan.

With different weight bullets your POI is going to change for sure. Seen that many times. I shoot 60 gn out of my 223,If I switch to 55 gn My rifle will shoot 4 to 5 inches to the left. Normal for that. Try one weight bullet and do the load work up on it. At 100 yards you should be able to pull less than 1 inch groups with ease.
 
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Seems to me you have an accuracy issue that ammo/powder type is not going to fix. according to the Remington web site, your rifle has a twist rate of 9 1/8, which if my math is right, should be good for bullet weights up to the very heaviest in .243.

If it were me I would buy cheap or load a bunch of ammo of the same type and work on the rifle. once that is sorted out then proceed with an accuracy load.

One thing I noticed is you say your rifle is currently a free floated barrel without the receiver bedded to the stock, I have seen this combination cause accuracy issues, I never free float the barrel if I'm not going to bed.

You could try shimming under the barrel to put a slight amount of up pressure on the barrel about an inch or 2 before the end of the stock to see if this changes anything.
 
One thing I noticed is you say your rifle is currently a free floated barrel without the receiver bedded to the stock, I have seen this combination cause accuracy issues, I never free float the barrel if I'm not going to bed

I am not aware of any that are not free floated these days.
 
Bought a brand new 700 BDL in .270 last year, it's not free floated, the stock touches the barrel out at almost the end. it shoots sub-moa groups with 130 grain bullets out to 300 yards (the farthest I have shot it to date). On a good day, I can clover leaf the first 3 or 4 rounds at 300 yards with an "out of the box" BDL rifle.
 
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Couple things to consider. The pressure point under the barrel tends to effectively stiffen the barrel, since only the forward portion is really free to vibrate. All things being equal, stiffer barrels tend to shoot more accurately. Also, unless the action is bedded into the stock, it is very unlikely to be a perfect fit, and the pressure point sort of forces it into a relatively stable relationship. If you remove the pressure point, your accuracy might go totally to pot, as the action can shift in the stock from shot to shot. The idea of putting pressure under the barrel is a good one, and is used as a diagnostic test to prove or disprove a bedding job. If it shoots better with pressure, your bedding is not correct. (No matter who does the bedding, they don't all turn out perfect.) Just my 2 cents, but until you find and address the basic problem, (whatever it is...) no amount of load tinkering will matter.:)
 
I have had excellent results bedding the lug and 2-3 inches beyond it with the rest of the barrel free floating. I have used this procedure for most all calibers from .223 to .30-06. It has worked well with Winchesters, Remingtons, Savages, etc. The one which concerned me the was the Ruger with the front action screw pulling in at a 45* angle. I lost a little sleep with that one wondering if I would be able to get the receiver out of the stock the next day... ha ha. It came out fine.

Most stocks have a cavernous mortise for the lug. If the lug is not solidly bedded it is probably shifting around in the stock at every shot. If that is happening I don't see how you can expect to get any kind of accuracy from the rifle.

You should also looks for cracks in the stock inline with the actions screws. I worked on a M70 Win. that had suddenly lost accuracy and found the stock to have a crack between and including the action screws. Replaced the stock and it was an accurate rifle again.

To me bedding the lug is the minimum. If you want to bed the entire receiver that is better.

I have a .243 RCBS, (a non-standard .243 using the .243 case) Rem 600 action. It has a Hart 24" sporter weight bbl. with a 10" twist. It will shoot 1/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yds. if I do my part. It will do this with 75 gr. Hornady HP and 100 gr Nosler Partitions. The powder I use is IMR 4350 and CCI primers.

In your situation I would start with bedding the lug and a little forward of it. Doing that is probably the least expensive with the greatest impact on accuracy. Since your bbl. is free floating I would wrap it with tape near the end of the stock to center in the bbl. channel.
Good luck.
 
Make sure your optics are good. Something is definitely wrong. You shouldn't NEED all these trigger and stock 'upgrades' to get decent groups. If I got a new rifle that shot 4'' @ 100yrds right out of the box, i'd be sending it back for repairs.
My Ruger M77 shoots MOA straight out of the box with factory ammo. Rugers are rarely known for their accuracy, the barrel is not free floated from the factory, in fact the barrel on the M77 is designed to shoot with forearm pressure from the stock. I am using a cheap Chinese 3-9x40 scope and have no problems putting bullets on top of each other @ 100yrds with decent factory ammo. When I change ammo weight and type, I get no changes in groups left-right, only elevation changes, which is expected and easily compensated for.

If you're getting shots 'all over the place' it could be faulty optics, shifting the 'zero' or just improperly mounted optics doing the same thing.
 
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The subject has been overworked and over-discussed, but how about checking the muzzle for damage to the bullet exit point? It is possible that the rifle was not really new, or that damage was done at the factory.

Jim
 
Wow. Thanks for all the good advice. The crown does not appear to have any damage. I'm going to call weaver and ask them to look at the scope just to be sure even though it does it with my other weaver and a Nikon monarch. And I'm also going to bring it back to the Remington factory seeing that I live 25 minutes from Ilion. I'm starting to get nervous that the barrel is gonna get shot out before I get this under control. Very disappointing. The gun is beautiful, nice heavy barrel. When I get this rifle back I'm going to send it to Boyds for them to bed it. Thanx again everyone.
 
I guess it is a matter of principles or maybe just money, but if I buy a new gun that won't perform, I am not going to shell out a bunch of money trying this or that to make the gun work right. I am going to take it back to the dealer (or return it to the factory) so it can be fixed or replaced with another gun.

Since you are close to Remington, I would just call them and ask them what to do. If they say to send it to South Carolina or someplace, tell them you will drop it off and they can send it away.

Jim
 
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