.22lr and barrier penetration

S

simonrichter

New member
It is obvious that .22lr out of a pistol is not a great round for penetrating hard surfaces like sheet metal, acrylic glass or the like. Yet, a (subsonic) 5.7 or a 5.45x18 yield a similar ME but are much better in penetrating stuff. I deduct that the material (soft lead) of the .22lr should be the main reason for its poor performance, not so much the energy or velocity. Would a FMJ .22lr perform better in penetrating (very light) barriers or are there other dimensions in the equation that would still favor above mentioned calibers?
 
Sale of the subsonic SB193 version is limited in the U.S. to military and law enforcement, and I'm not aware of any military or law enforcement agency that uses it. I have not seen any tests of it. The full-power 5.7x28 was initially regarded by scare mongers in the U.S. as a "cop killer" bullet because of its ability to penetrate Kevlar (soft) body armor. Are there tests documenting that the subsonic variant is effective against hard barriers?

For what it's worth, plain lead .22LR penetrates automotive sheet metal very effectively. My bother and a friend had antique automobiles stored in a barn on a remote property. We went there one day to find that both cars were riddled with bullet holes. The bullets had passed through 3/4-inch (19mm) pine boards and still had plenty of energy to pass completely through the sheet metal. And that sheet metal was a couple of gauges thicker than what they use on cars today.
 
The bullets had passed through 3/4-inch (19mm) pine boards and still had plenty of energy to pass completely through the sheet metal.
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that sounds like out of a rifle barrel, right?

I only know that SS 5.7 (55gr) yields about 165 joules compared to roughly 120 you get from a .22lr out of a pistol barrel. Maybe it doesn't have that much more penetration capability than a .22lr, but I doubt that.

The 5.45x18 is even only around 130 joules - and it can allegedly defeat soft body armor.
 
It is obvious that .22lr out of a pistol is not a great round for penetrating hard surfaces like sheet metal, acrylic glass or the like.
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Shhhhh- don't let the American 180 here you say that! ;) .

One of the coolest videos ever - was the sales promotion for the American 180.

It's a .22LR submachine gun with a cyclic rate of like 11ty 7 billion rounds per second.
(just exaggerating quite a bit here since I can't recall what it is - but - it's awful fast).

What they did for their promo was - disintegrate a cement block wall - then more on to a car door and disintegrate that.
It was like some SciFi thing - where you just saw it demolish tiny bit by tiny bit.

As the story went, the guns were intended to be used on prison towers & in order to keep the peace, the promo film was shown to the prisoners - to convince them how futile a riot would be.

I wish I could dig up the old video. I poked around & all I can find are modern vidoeos.
 
I only know that SS 5.7 (55gr) yields about 165 joules compared to roughly 120 you get from a .22lr out of a pistol barrel
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joules is a metric unit of energy, right??

the only Jules I ever paid attention to was Verne :D

still, I think I know what you're saying, the 5.7 has a larger energy number than the .22LR. OK. so?? Even at the same velocity, the 5.7 would have a higher energy number because its a 55gr bullet, not a 40gr like the standard .22LR.

Add in a copper jacket (not plating) and if you didn't get superior barrier penetration over the .22LR, I'd be surprised.

The 5.45x18 is even only around 130 joules - and it can allegedly defeat soft body armor.
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The .22WRM (.22 Magnum) will defeat SOME soft body armor.

So will an icepick or a screwdriver...what's your point??
 
simonrichter said:
The bullets had passed through 3/4-inch (19mm) pine boards and still had plenty of energy to pass completely through the sheet metal.
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that sounds like out of a rifle barrel, right?
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We don't know. This was in the early or mid-1970s. The shooters were never caught, but it isn't difficult to conclude that it was teenagers. Handguns were not common in homes around here in the 1970s, but .22 rifles were very common so the answer is "very probably yes."
 
joules is a metric unit of energy, right??
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there are admittedly only a few things the Europeans did right when it comes to guns. One is inventing the Glock, the other is applying the metric system ;)

136 joules equals approx. 100 ft/lbs, for the imperial community here :p
 
The 5.45x18 round intended for body armor is a copper FMJ with a steel core. All legalities aside, make a .22 lr round out of similar components and I suspect you'd get similar performance. .22 lr uses a heeled bullet which would add a layer of complexity to the manufacturing and loading process.

.22 lr is a great round because it's so cheap. Use a bullet that costs 5x what your typical round costs and you won't sell much. Might as well just go to .22 WMR or use 5.45x18 if that's the performance level you're looking for.
 
The 5.45x18 round intended for body armor is a copper FMJ with a steel core. All legalities aside, make a .22 lr round out of similar components and I suspect you'd get similar performance. .22 lr uses a heeled bullet which would add a layer of complexity to the manufacturing and loading process.
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thanks, that was exactly what I have suspected. Of course it makes no sense in economic terms, but technically it would be possible...

Lately, I managed to get my hands on something I considered non-existent before: .22lr FMJ. Haven't tested them yet, but I'm pretty sure these will penetrate hard materials better than the usual lead pills.
 
That's very interesting. Too bad it's not available in the U.S.

That site has another odd looking .22LR cartridge, too:

https://thehunter.fandom.com/de/wiki/.22_lr_Hollow_Point

Translation [computer-generated]:

The .22 lfB (long rifle) cartridge, also called .22 lr (long rifle), is a rim cartridge for small caliber handguns.

The .22 lfB is ignited by rimfire ignition. The firing pin hits the protruding base rim with the initial charge, which ignites the propellant charge.

The ammunition is mostly used in sport shooting (e.g. free pistol, sport pistol, biathlon), especially as an interchangeable system for inexpensive training in the main weapon, and in hunting. However, hunting use is limited by the short range and the susceptibility to wind, so that the ammunition is mainly used for building and trap hunting of predatory game as well as for hunting small animals (hares, rabbits). In built-up areas and cemeteries, hunting is often carried out with silenced weapons, but a special permit is required for this. The caliber .22 lr is often used by poachers because of its low bang, especially in combination with silencer and Sub Sonic.

The small caliber cartridge is also characterized by its low price, low noise and low recoil.
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The cartridges in the photo appear to have almost no bullet, a very long case, and a heavy roll crimp.
 
The cartridges in the photo appear to have almost no bullet, a very long case, and a heavy roll crimp.
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looks more like a hard core protruding out of a FMJ. But that is a fan-made phantasy round, right? (the text is simply taken from some wiki site, it appears). The auto translation is astonishing, though! Just a matter of time 'till we'll all ve replaced by machines... :D
 
The bullet is the whole secret to 22 penetration. You can't expect a dead soft lead bullet to penetrate a hard barrier. If you want a 22 with deep penetration look at getting a 22 magnum. Either a revolver or one of the 22 mag autos. With a FMJ bullet they will penetrate.

My bud who lives in the country bought a new barrel for a burn barrel. He wanted some holes shot in it for air flow. So I shot it with a 22 and 22 mag and the 22 mag would go through both sides of the barrel easily. The 22 would only go through one side. I felt like the 22 mag would have went through both sides of 2 barrels if I had of tried it. That test was from rifles by the way.

If you saw the old Marlin catalogs from years ago they would shoot a stack of walnut blocks with a 22 and then a 22 mag. They would section the blocks to show how much deeper the 22 mag went than the 22lr. The mag round would go about two and a half times deeper than the 22lr.

Some like to complain about the cost of 22 mag but they fail to take into account that the 22 mag comes with a real jacketed bullet (if you stay away from the crappy CCI mag ammo). It has a case twice as long and what must be 3 times the powder. So yes it cost more. But its a real step up in power over a 22lr. You get what you pay for.
 
The bullet is the whole secret to 22 penetration. You can't expect a dead soft lead bullet to penetrate a hard barrier.
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that's exactly what I suspected. The more excited I am to try some .22lr FMJ soon...
 
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