.223 vs 5.56
- Thread starter jetrecbn1
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Well, if you multiply 5.56mm X 0.03937 inches/mm you get... 
The .223 Remington is the name for the military's 5.56 X whatever number of millimeters the case length is...
Same animal.
Same sort of thing happens with the .308 Winchester. Same as NATO's 7.62 X whatever. 51mm? Not to be confused with .308 Norma Magnum, or 7.62X39 AK round...Confused?
There is no set standard for cartridge nomenclature. For instance, what is commonly referred to as the "8mm Mauser" is also called the "8X57". You just learn as you go.
(I don't have a loading book handy to check some of the numbers...)
Regards, Art
The .223 Remington is the name for the military's 5.56 X whatever number of millimeters the case length is...
Same animal.
Same sort of thing happens with the .308 Winchester. Same as NATO's 7.62 X whatever. 51mm? Not to be confused with .308 Norma Magnum, or 7.62X39 AK round...Confused?
There is no set standard for cartridge nomenclature. For instance, what is commonly referred to as the "8mm Mauser" is also called the "8X57". You just learn as you go.
(I don't have a loading book handy to check some of the numbers...)
Regards, Art
MountainGun44
New member
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!!
If you have a rifle with a .223 barrel- especially if it is a "match" barrel- you may have problems with 5.56 ammo. Especially Winchester Q3131 5.56mm ammo. If you read the box you will find that it says .223 NOWHERE ON THE BOX OR ON THE AMMO. Typical symptoms of this problem include failure to extract, failure to fully cycle, failure to strip the next round into the chamber,double striping, etc. My Bushmaster shoots like a single shot with 5.56mm ammo. It jams almost every shot. The .223 chamber is not the exact dimensions of a 5.56mm mil-spec chamber. It is a bit tighter. My Mini-14 will shoot 5.56mm ammo all day. My Bushmaster with a Wilson barrel will not function reliably. A 5.56mm chambered rifle will typically not shoot as tight a group as a match barrelled .223 rifle.
Some rifles do not have this problem, but many do.
MANY, MANY PEOPLE WILL SAY THEY ARE THE SAME BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.
THIS IS NOT A MAGAZINE PROBLEM. IT IS NOT A CLEANING PROBLEM. IT IS AN AMMO PROBLEM.
TRY A SEARCH FOR "Q3131" ON AR15.COM, THEN FOLLOW THE TRAIL. NEXT TIME SOMEONE ARGUES WITH YOU ABOUT THIS, MAKE A BET.
try this
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum14/HTML/001085.html
[This message has been edited by MountainGun44 (edited August 01, 2000).]
If you have a rifle with a .223 barrel- especially if it is a "match" barrel- you may have problems with 5.56 ammo. Especially Winchester Q3131 5.56mm ammo. If you read the box you will find that it says .223 NOWHERE ON THE BOX OR ON THE AMMO. Typical symptoms of this problem include failure to extract, failure to fully cycle, failure to strip the next round into the chamber,double striping, etc. My Bushmaster shoots like a single shot with 5.56mm ammo. It jams almost every shot. The .223 chamber is not the exact dimensions of a 5.56mm mil-spec chamber. It is a bit tighter. My Mini-14 will shoot 5.56mm ammo all day. My Bushmaster with a Wilson barrel will not function reliably. A 5.56mm chambered rifle will typically not shoot as tight a group as a match barrelled .223 rifle.
Some rifles do not have this problem, but many do.
MANY, MANY PEOPLE WILL SAY THEY ARE THE SAME BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.
THIS IS NOT A MAGAZINE PROBLEM. IT IS NOT A CLEANING PROBLEM. IT IS AN AMMO PROBLEM.
TRY A SEARCH FOR "Q3131" ON AR15.COM, THEN FOLLOW THE TRAIL. NEXT TIME SOMEONE ARGUES WITH YOU ABOUT THIS, MAKE A BET.
try this
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum14/HTML/001085.html
[This message has been edited by MountainGun44 (edited August 01, 2000).]
Chris Orndorff
New member
So, I'm reading that there IS a difference, although the difference is in chamber spec, not case spec. Anyone got the measurements?
Interesting, I always thought they were the same round.
In My POST BAN colt match target rifle all i use is Lake City Mfcted US Military 5.56mm ammo. I have never had an extract problem. My lower receiver is marked .223
My Bushy; the lower receiver is marked 5.56mm-.223. Never had a problem with that rifle either feeding military Ammo. Both Lake City and that Berdan primed South African Battle Pack stuff.
DONT USE Steel Cased ammo. Maybe that is the problem. I'd stay away from stuff like Wolf, TRW etc.
In My POST BAN colt match target rifle all i use is Lake City Mfcted US Military 5.56mm ammo. I have never had an extract problem. My lower receiver is marked .223
My Bushy; the lower receiver is marked 5.56mm-.223. Never had a problem with that rifle either feeding military Ammo. Both Lake City and that Berdan primed South African Battle Pack stuff.
DONT USE Steel Cased ammo. Maybe that is the problem. I'd stay away from stuff like Wolf, TRW etc.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, here we go again. ACCORDING TO SAAMI (THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD KNOW) THERE IS NO DIMENSIONAL DIFFERENCE IN .223 AND 5.56mm CARTRIDGES. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE LOADED CARTRIDGES.
.223 is lower pressure (about 52,000 CUP) and 5.56mm is designated as higher pressure. SAAMI has long stood by their recommendation that 5.56 not be used in rifles labeled as .223 because of the risk of overpressure. It may never happen in your gun, but it's like using 38+P in a revolver designated as 38 only.
MountainGun44 also hit upon the differences in chambers. THIS IS ALSO NOT A SAAMI REGULATED DIMENSION. Military rifles and some others use a SLIGHTLY larger chamber to facilitate feeding/extraction, especially under sustained fire(heat build up) and in messy conditions (duh-the battlefield!) Remember, the first and most important thing about a combat arm is RELIABILITY, thus, the larger chamber.
It's really usually only a matter of running a finishing reamer through the chamber after the rough reamer a few more times than usual to get a 5.56 chamber instead of a .223 chamber. THEY ARE THE SAME TOOLS. HOWEVER, some manufacturers use finishing reamers that are slightly larger, thus facilitating faster prodiction and lower tool wear.
I just had a CLE AR15 upper made, and I called them with this specific question. Above is what they told me, which mirrors what my local gunsmith buddy (45 years as a tool and die maker/gunsmith) and the SAAMI web site.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
------------------
A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
Wake up and realize that you have the moral imperative of action..!!!
OK, here we go again. ACCORDING TO SAAMI (THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD KNOW) THERE IS NO DIMENSIONAL DIFFERENCE IN .223 AND 5.56mm CARTRIDGES. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE LOADED CARTRIDGES.
.223 is lower pressure (about 52,000 CUP) and 5.56mm is designated as higher pressure. SAAMI has long stood by their recommendation that 5.56 not be used in rifles labeled as .223 because of the risk of overpressure. It may never happen in your gun, but it's like using 38+P in a revolver designated as 38 only.
MountainGun44 also hit upon the differences in chambers. THIS IS ALSO NOT A SAAMI REGULATED DIMENSION. Military rifles and some others use a SLIGHTLY larger chamber to facilitate feeding/extraction, especially under sustained fire(heat build up) and in messy conditions (duh-the battlefield!) Remember, the first and most important thing about a combat arm is RELIABILITY, thus, the larger chamber.
It's really usually only a matter of running a finishing reamer through the chamber after the rough reamer a few more times than usual to get a 5.56 chamber instead of a .223 chamber. THEY ARE THE SAME TOOLS. HOWEVER, some manufacturers use finishing reamers that are slightly larger, thus facilitating faster prodiction and lower tool wear.
I just had a CLE AR15 upper made, and I called them with this specific question. Above is what they told me, which mirrors what my local gunsmith buddy (45 years as a tool and die maker/gunsmith) and the SAAMI web site.
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
------------------
A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
Wake up and realize that you have the moral imperative of action..!!!
Chris Orndorff
New member
Still seeing some ambiguity here re the "difference". Looks like they are identical cartridges (dimensionally) but chambers are slightly different.
The Mil SPec on AR15 M4 head space is:
3.4.1 Head Space The head space shall not be less than
1.4646 inches nor more than 1.4706 inches when measured to the
.330 inch datum diameter on the first sholder of the chamber.
here is the spec on
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193
Type Classification:
STD - AMCTC 5143.
Use:
Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
intended for use against personnel and unarmored
targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a plain
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A066
UNO serial number ............0012
UNO proper shipping
name ...............................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ................................182 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze....................................NA
Explosive:
Type ...............................NA
Weight ............................NA
Incendiary:
Type - ..............................NA
Weight ............................. NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844 or
CMR 170
Weight .............................28.5 or 26.5 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................56 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure...............52,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3250 fps, 15 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M855
Type Classification:
STD - MSR 05826003.
Use:
Machine Gun, 5.56mm, M249E1; and Rifle, 5.56mm,
M16A2. The cartridge is intended for use against
personnel and unarmored targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a green
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A059
UNO serial number .............0012
UNO proper shipping
name...................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ................................190 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze ...................................NA
Explosive:
Type ................................NA
Weight .............................NA
Incendiary:
Type ...............................NA
Weight .............................NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844
Weight ............................26.1 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................62 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure ..............55,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3025 fps, 78 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG.................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V
DOT shipping class .............C
DOT designation .................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number .................9342862
References:
DARCOM 700-3-2
TM 9-1300-206
TM 9-1305-201-20&P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
proofing is done with
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, HIGH PRESSURE TEST, M197
Type Classification:
STD - AMCTC 4484.
Use:
Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
used to proof test weapons during manufacture, test, or
repair.
Description:
HIGH PRESSURE TEST Cartridge. The cartridge is
identified by a stannic-stained (silvered) or nickel-plated
cartridge case.
Function:
The cartridge is loaded with a special propellant to
produce pressures substantially in excess of the service
round.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A070
UNO serial number .............0012
UNO proper shipping
name ..................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ...............................174 gr
Length................................. 2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze....................................NA
Explosive:
Type ................................NA
Weight ............................NA
Incendiary:
Type ................................NA
Weight .............................NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................SR 7641
Weight-............................16.7 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................56 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure...............70,000 psi
Velocity ..............................NA
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ................................1.4S
Storage code.......................Class V
3.4.1 Head Space The head space shall not be less than
1.4646 inches nor more than 1.4706 inches when measured to the
.330 inch datum diameter on the first sholder of the chamber.
here is the spec on
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193
Type Classification:
STD - AMCTC 5143.
Use:
Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
intended for use against personnel and unarmored
targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a plain
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A066
UNO serial number ............0012
UNO proper shipping
name ...............................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ................................182 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze....................................NA
Explosive:
Type ...............................NA
Weight ............................NA
Incendiary:
Type - ..............................NA
Weight ............................. NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844 or
CMR 170
Weight .............................28.5 or 26.5 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................56 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure...............52,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3250 fps, 15 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M855
Type Classification:
STD - MSR 05826003.
Use:
Machine Gun, 5.56mm, M249E1; and Rifle, 5.56mm,
M16A2. The cartridge is intended for use against
personnel and unarmored targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a green
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A059
UNO serial number .............0012
UNO proper shipping
name...................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ................................190 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze ...................................NA
Explosive:
Type ................................NA
Weight .............................NA
Incendiary:
Type ...............................NA
Weight .............................NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844
Weight ............................26.1 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................62 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure ..............55,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3025 fps, 78 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG.................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V
DOT shipping class .............C
DOT designation .................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number .................9342862
References:
DARCOM 700-3-2
TM 9-1300-206
TM 9-1305-201-20&P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
proofing is done with
CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, HIGH PRESSURE TEST, M197
Type Classification:
STD - AMCTC 4484.
Use:
Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
used to proof test weapons during manufacture, test, or
repair.
Description:
HIGH PRESSURE TEST Cartridge. The cartridge is
identified by a stannic-stained (silvered) or nickel-plated
cartridge case.
Function:
The cartridge is loaded with a special propellant to
produce pressures substantially in excess of the service
round.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A070
UNO serial number .............0012
UNO proper shipping
name ..................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ...............................174 gr
Length................................. 2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze....................................NA
Explosive:
Type ................................NA
Weight ............................NA
Incendiary:
Type ................................NA
Weight .............................NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................SR 7641
Weight-............................16.7 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................56 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure...............70,000 psi
Velocity ..............................NA
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ................................1.4S
Storage code.......................Class V
TECHNICAL DATA SHEET http://www.saami.org/unsafe3.htm
UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS
Ammunition used in a firearm must be the same caliber or gauge as that marked on the firearm by
its manufacturer. If the firearm is not marked as to the caliber or gauge, or if it appears that the
original marking has been overprinted or changed, it is the responsibility of the gun user to have a
qualified person determine what cartridge or shell can be safely used in the firearm.
The firing of a cartridge or shell other than that for which the firearm is chambered can result in the
cartridge or shell rupturing and releasing high pressure gas that can damage or destroy the firearm
and kill or seriously injure the shooter and persons nearby.
There are countless combinations of specific cartridges and firearms which are unsafe. Many of
these unsafe combinations are recognizable because of specific differences between the similar
chamber and cartridge dimensions. It is not possible to list every unsafe combination; therefore, in
the interest of safety, use only the cartridge (or shell) designated by the firearm or ammunition
manufacturer for use in a specific firearm. The cartridge caliber or shotshell gauge must be marked
on the firearm frame, receiver or barrel by its manufacturer.
The practice of rechambering firearms is not guided by industry standards. It is possible that a
firearm which has been rechambered may not be rechambered properly or the rechambered caliber
may not be marked on the firearm. The firearm user is responsible to find out from a qualified
person the cartridge caliber or shell gauge for which the firearm has been rechambered.
CENTERFIRE RIFLE
In Rifle Chambered For
223 Remington
Do Not Use These Cartridges
5.56mm Military
UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS
Ammunition used in a firearm must be the same caliber or gauge as that marked on the firearm by
its manufacturer. If the firearm is not marked as to the caliber or gauge, or if it appears that the
original marking has been overprinted or changed, it is the responsibility of the gun user to have a
qualified person determine what cartridge or shell can be safely used in the firearm.
The firing of a cartridge or shell other than that for which the firearm is chambered can result in the
cartridge or shell rupturing and releasing high pressure gas that can damage or destroy the firearm
and kill or seriously injure the shooter and persons nearby.
There are countless combinations of specific cartridges and firearms which are unsafe. Many of
these unsafe combinations are recognizable because of specific differences between the similar
chamber and cartridge dimensions. It is not possible to list every unsafe combination; therefore, in
the interest of safety, use only the cartridge (or shell) designated by the firearm or ammunition
manufacturer for use in a specific firearm. The cartridge caliber or shotshell gauge must be marked
on the firearm frame, receiver or barrel by its manufacturer.
The practice of rechambering firearms is not guided by industry standards. It is possible that a
firearm which has been rechambered may not be rechambered properly or the rechambered caliber
may not be marked on the firearm. The firearm user is responsible to find out from a qualified
person the cartridge caliber or shell gauge for which the firearm has been rechambered.
CENTERFIRE RIFLE
In Rifle Chambered For
223 Remington
Do Not Use These Cartridges
5.56mm Military
here is some data on .308 vs 7.62 x 51
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
RikWriter: From what's posted above, the answer seems to be, "Technically, yes."
SFAIK, folks been shooting GI stuff in civilian rifles, and civilian stuff in GI rifles, since the AR-16/M16 first came out.
My question would be whether anybody has SEEN a blowup from "wrong ammo"? I have never heard of one, for whatever that's worth...
I've run a lot of GI ammo and reloads of GI brass through three Mini-14s, two AR-15s and one M-16, and two bolt actions, with nary a problem of any sort. Dangifino.
, Art
SFAIK, folks been shooting GI stuff in civilian rifles, and civilian stuff in GI rifles, since the AR-16/M16 first came out.
My question would be whether anybody has SEEN a blowup from "wrong ammo"? I have never heard of one, for whatever that's worth...
I've run a lot of GI ammo and reloads of GI brass through three Mini-14s, two AR-15s and one M-16, and two bolt actions, with nary a problem of any sort. Dangifino.
, ArtThis question has come up before and I asked about it once myself. I specifically asked if I could shoot 5.56 military surplus ammo through my Ruger M77 Mk II bolt-action .223 rifle. The consensus was split so I called Ruger and the Technical Division people told me that it was safe to shoot any milsurp 5.56 ammo through the .223 Ruger (!). So, I sent them a letter asking the same question. I feel that if I get the same answer in writing then I will go ahead and use the 5.56. This stuff is confusing as h*ll!