.223 penetration - I am skeptical

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Dave3006

New member
In my quest to find the ideal weapon for the next riot type scenario, I have been testing several ideas. I keep hearing about reports claiming the .223 is a good urban round. I took my AR to the range. I made a target with 6 plywood sheets spaced about 3 inches apart to simulate a solid "house like" wall. I fired into the target at 25 yards. Both American Eagle FMJ 55gr and 52gr hollowpoints zipped right through it! Like butter. I don't know, it seems to me (especially if .223 does penetrate less than a pistol caliber) that ANY rifle will overpenetrate in the city.

The problem with a shotgun is that with 00 you are limited to 25-50 yards. In a riot, it is very realistic to need to engage a target at 50 yards burning a house or shooting at yours. Switching to slugs puts you back to overpenetration mode.

It sounds like an unsolvable problem.
 
Define "over penetrate". What is your concern? Going thru target and then killing someone? You need to plan on at least some of your rounds missing target, that is what will happen in the real world. So you have to be aware of your backstop when you shoot a goblin anyway.

You need enough to kill a goblin right?

For the 223 if you want real low go with a 40 grain V max or Ballistic tip. Or any of the 40 to 55 grain varmint bullets.

The 223 is the best choice for a semi auto that offers low penetration. You could goto a 22-250 or 220 Swift or a 17 rem to get even less. Actually you could probably get a custom gun based on a mini 14 or AR in 17 rem.
 
My chief concern is missing the target and hitting an occupied dwelling. You have to plan for clear misses - Murphy factor. It seems that a .223 will zip through a house an stand a good chance of hitting an innocent person.

Of course you would only shoot if the person is a threat. Contrary to common thought, at 50 yards, someone could easily be a real threat burning, shooting ect.
 
Ok, the problem is the differing terminal energy retentions. At 25 yards there ismore energy than the same bullet at 50. When a bullet strikes something, it's energy is transmitted to the target...but HOW it is transmitted is the way to manipulate terminal ballistics. An "explosive" varmint round will deliver more energy at 25 than 50, but will use more energy in it's fragmentation than in penetration. At 50 yards, more will go to penetration because of the lack of energy to highly fragment.

So use a very good quality, light-weight (40-50 grains) varmint bullet.


Hueco
 
Dave3006,

Have you tried expanding .223 rounds like the Hornady TAP ammo? Perhaps that might be the answer.
 
The TAP ammo is designed for Urban settings. It should make an excellent choice if overpenetration is a problem. Almost any of the expanding "hunting" type ammo should work as well.

I do know for an absolute fact that 55 gr FMJ in a .233 will penetrate 7" of seasoned solid oak (railroad tie blanks) when fired from an AR-15 at 25 yards! That same backstop material halted every pistol round ever fired into it (over 7000) including FMJ. It also stopped every expanding rifle round fired into it including 7mm magnum.

Mikey
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave3006:
My chief concern is missing the target and hitting an occupied dwelling. You have to plan for clear misses - Murphy factor. It seems that a .223 will zip through a house an stand a good chance of hitting an innocent person.

Of course you would only shoot if the person is a threat. Contrary to common thought, at 50 yards, someone could easily be a real threat burning, shooting ect.[/quote]
Well I am assuming that your thinking LA type riots or some such? Normal home defense would not involve this type of problem would it?

The best way to handle over penetration is to have a safe backstop. I encourage people who are really concerned about it for home defense to create safe backstops for their fields of fire. This also give you a safe place to dry fire just in case.

I think the whole overpenetration concern is over blown.

But like I said you could get a 22-250 with a 40 grain Vmax that wouldn't overpenetrate :D
 
Glamdring, a 22-250 is MORE powerful than a 223. If he is concerned with OP, then he should load that 40 grain V-Max in the 223. 22-250 is almost to 220 Swift standars.


Hueco
 
Problem with Hornady TAP ammunition is that its being sold as LEO ONLY ammo. (At least it is around here)
If penetration is such a concern - I'ld suggest abandoning the AR (which I'ld recomend anyway) and moving to a carbine that fires a pistol caliber round. In that carbine I would suggest loading up frangibles.
 
Yes the 22-250 is faster! Which will result in more bullet fragmentation and thus less penetration.

For shooting thru walls and etc a 5.56 does it's best at 200 meters because it has slowed down enough that the FMJ bullet doesn't self destruct when it hits the wall. The higher the impact velocity the less penetration you will have with expanding bullets [And with the 223/5.56 FMJ bullets fragment inside 75 yards when fired from 16" or greater length barrels...because the 223 is a HIGH velocity cartridge it over stresses FMJ's at close range, the 22-250 takes the same bullet and adds what 200-300 fps?]. And with varmint bullets you will get a Glasser safety slug type performance on impact if the velocity is high enough.

As to the TAP stuff Midway has had a special on that for at least the last month. It is marketed for LE but as far as I know [check local listings] you only have to worry about local laws. It isn't restricted ammo. It is like the "tactical" shotgun loads.

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
If you plan to miss, plan on incidental casualties.

Pistol ammunition, in tests, penetrates more in other medium than .223. You are basically saying that every gun overpenetrates in the city.

GD is correct in suggesting that a high velocity, low weight varmint round will tend to have extremely low penetration.

In firing into water-filled milk jugs, the Federal Eagle HP only penetrated mild fragments into the third jug at ten yards. (This was almost exactly the performance the low-powered FN hardball .32 delivered from my P-32, at least in regards to depth; the difference being the obvious violence of the contact and fragmentation from the .223, as opposed to the virtually pristine recovered .32 ACP.)
 
I can't say for sure what I will do if it's a really bad LA Riot type of day, but the training I was fortunate enough to receive stressed:

-Safety Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what's beyond.

-You are responsible for the terminal resting place of every projectile you launch.

-Only shoot if you are confident of making the hit.

To comfortably address the third point, one should train in shooting as close to the same conditions as you have in your expected shootout environment.

If it's a long shot, I'd want a scoped .308 rifle of some sort. I'm not talking Carlos Hathcock 1500 yard stuff, but rather simple stuff like 80 yards and I want to make sure I don't miss. 50 yards with my Leupold turned down to 3.5x is very manageable.

If I was very concerned with overpenetration, I'd use a .22 rimfire rifle with a scope. This may sound laughable, but with my old .22 I can hit man sized torsos all day long out to 100 yards easily. No, it won't make for insta-stoppa-the-thugs but
I can still do a lot with mine. A possible advantage is that .22 rimfires are pretty quiet, and the angry mob down the street may not realize for a while what's happening or where it's coming from. ....but I'd keep the heavier stuff close by in case things got rough!

One things for sure: a .22 rifle and a boatload of ammo won't cost much.

Disclaimer: it would have to be a very bad day for me to be taking long shots at people. I would have to be in immediate danger of lethal or crippling injury. I would have exhausted other options such as calling the police, blah blah blah.

Edmund
 
Hornady TAP is no different than their varmint bullets. It is exactly the same with fancy-shmansy "Tactical" labels on it.
While these rounds may have less wall penetration, they were also designed for killing gophers and for use in bolt guns. They may or may not function reliably in autoloaders, and they will not generally have sufficient penetration to reliably reach vitals in humans. Your primary concern is the effectiveness of the bullets that DO hit the target. Wall penetration is a secondary issue.
If you want a load that will perhaps penetrate less wall material but will still have good terminal ballistics for both human and deer size targets, use the Winchester 64 gr. Powerpoint.
 
What about a compromise 22? A 22 Hornet with 35 grain V max?

I still think the 17 Rem would work :) course does the 17 even count as a poodle shooter?
 
Velocity will increase penetration with full metal jackets. Shoot a steel plate 1" thick with 30-06 150fmj and the same bullet in 308 and the 06 will dig deeper, been there done that.

Mike thanks, I am glad someone else has seen 223 penetrate more than any pistol round also.

220 or 22-250 with non varmint will out penetrate 223 all day long. Dont know enough about ballistic tip penetration to be sure of those.

Glam have heard that once the millitary 5.56mm slows down some it will increase in penetration. So I do understand where your coming from. But based on my finding the faster you go the more you penetrate all else being equal, as a rule.

Dave, I will go along with Mr Hill on this one.
 
If all things were equal. If you have a bullet tough enough that it doesn't deform then increased velocity will increase penetration. If you have a bullet that deforms [ie mushsrooms] higher velocity will decrease penetration. Because the mushroom is made bigger. The other thing is that with most big game cartridges with normal bullets the velocity is <3000 fps while a 223 is >3200 with 55 grain bulelts and >3400 with 40 grain bullets. And the threshold for 223 bullet failure is around 2700 fps impact velocity. Which about equals 308/150 ball ammo at the muzzle.

The 22-250 will push a 40 grain bullet to the 4000 fps range vs the 223's 3500 fps.

A varmint bullet is designed to fall apart when it hits things to reduce ricochet and because varmints are such a small critter that you don't have to worry about having enough penetration.

I have seen varmint ballistics tips blow up on the HAIR of a coyote.

Consider the opposite extreme when we want maximum penetration. With elephant cartridges we use tough bullets at LOW velocity to maximize penetration. Because while high velocity will increase penetration IF the bullet doesn't bend or deform it is easier to make a bullet that stays together at low speed. And it gives a bigger margin with Murphy.

The idea behind a 223 or 22-250 vs a handgun cartridge is that the impact velocity, AT CLOSE RANGE, is so high that it breaks the bullet. Think of a fly hitting your windshield at 5 mph he will bounce, but if he hits at 50 mph he splatters. At 100 mph he will still splatter. A 22-250 will splatter it bullets at longer ranges than a 223.



[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 05, 2000).]
 
<Think of a fly hitting your windshield at 5 mph he will bounce, but if he hits at 50 mph he splatters. At 100 mph he will still splatter.>

Think of a fly hitting your windshield at the 'speed of light'. This will vaporize your car and kill you! ;)



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Just one of the Good Guys
 
Keep in mind during any discussion like this that there are two kinds of penetration, and they are not the same nor does one predict the other. There is tissue/gelatim penetration, and there is hard barrier (ie steel plate) penetration. Two totally different things.
 
How about using .308 with Glaser slugs? They won't overpenetrate. Problem with these is that if you fire them through glass, good luck. The bottom line is that you are trying to achieve two goals which, to a great degree, cancel each other out. You want range, terminal balistics, and lack of overpenetration. Comprimise is the name of the game. I would use a 9mm or 45ACP carbine or SMG... Can we say H&K?
 
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