I am doing a lot of moving and shooting at the same time and looking to do anything I can to create less recoil to help keep me on target. I added a surefire muzzle break which works great, but I am also considering a heavy buffer as well. Some say this reduces recoil, other state, dont change the buffer unless you have a suppressed weapon (which I do not) I'm looking at Spikes Tactical T2, but are there any other that you would recommend over Spikes?
.223 Heavy Buffers?
- Thread starter Danger12
- Start date
Technosavant
New member
Any specifics regarding the rifle?
Barrel length, gas system length, type of stock attached, etc. would help.
A heavier buffer isn't necessarily going to help with recoil- it might help smooth out the functioning, especially if it's overgassed (not unusual if it's a carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel). The heavier buffer can also create short stroking if everything is just fine.
Generally, a heavier buffer is just that- there isn't much to say about them. The Spike's T2 is just fine.
Barrel length, gas system length, type of stock attached, etc. would help.
A heavier buffer isn't necessarily going to help with recoil- it might help smooth out the functioning, especially if it's overgassed (not unusual if it's a carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel). The heavier buffer can also create short stroking if everything is just fine.
Generally, a heavier buffer is just that- there isn't much to say about them. The Spike's T2 is just fine.
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
It works great in my pre-ban Mitchell Arms Yugo AK47 underfolder. It's easy to install and cheap enough to remove if you don't like it for some reason. For me at least it makes things a little quieter and quicker. It cushions the bolt when it slams back, which does make it more pleasant to shoot. I heard some negatives regarding not cycling properly, but after about a year I've been nothing, but pleased. Give it a try, cause you have nothing to lose.
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Crow Hunter
New member
I think, your best bet will be to investigate a lighter bolt carrier if you want to go faster.
Reducing the recoiling mass will probably give you better results than increasing the buffer weight. You have to watch out when changing buffer weights/springs to make sure you don't overpower your ammo and cause short cycling.
I don't know if changing the buffer will reduce the recoil or just spread the impulse out over a longer period of time.
I think JP Enterprises makes some "racing" BCGs that might help you out some.
Someone else will probably chime in that knows more about racing that will be able to tell you better than me. There is probably some info over on the Brian Enos forums too.
Reducing the recoiling mass will probably give you better results than increasing the buffer weight. You have to watch out when changing buffer weights/springs to make sure you don't overpower your ammo and cause short cycling.
I don't know if changing the buffer will reduce the recoil or just spread the impulse out over a longer period of time.
I think JP Enterprises makes some "racing" BCGs that might help you out some.
Someone else will probably chime in that knows more about racing that will be able to tell you better than me. There is probably some info over on the Brian Enos forums too.
Technosavant
New member
Uh, how, exactly, do you put a heavy carbine buffer weight from an AR-15 into an AK pattern rifle? I assume you're talking about those elastomer bolt buffers some folks use in their AK, but those have absolutely no bearing on what is being discussed here.
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
I'll never argue with a savant. AREN'T THEY BOTH THE SAME PRINCIPLE? If you got an AK get the buffer. Have a sloe gin fizz on me!
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Technosavant
New member
No. The principle is completely different.
The AR-15 buffer is actually a weight in line with the bolt carrier. Behind the buffer rests the action spring. As the rifle cycles, the weight of the buffer can slow down the action, preventing the thing from beating itself apart. The OP is asking about using a heavier buffer to reduce the felt recoil impulse- the jury is out as to how well a heavier buffer can do that, but it can make things run a little more smoothly if the gun has an excess of gas pressure (causing the bolt and carrier to recoil sharply).
The AK buffer of which you speak is an elastomer insert to keep the bolt carrier from beating up the rear trunnion. There's no weight and it is not a reciprocating part like the AR-15 buffer.
Completely different. (Mentally insert NBC's "The More You Know" graphic here...
)I'm missing something here. I've done a lot of AR shooting with 223s and I'm trying to figure out how the recoil keeps you from getting back on target quickly. Seems to me, with proper follow though and position, you're back on target.
The heaviest bullets you can get in the mags of an AR is 77 grainers, they don't kick that much even out of a super light M16A1 or SP1.
Maybe I'm not reading this right unless you just want to spay, but then recoil wouldn't matter anyway.
The heaviest bullets you can get in the mags of an AR is 77 grainers, they don't kick that much even out of a super light M16A1 or SP1.
Maybe I'm not reading this right unless you just want to spay, but then recoil wouldn't matter anyway.
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
Technosavant, I thank you for explaining the differeces between the AK and AR. Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly. I realize these are two different systems, but aren't they in their own way attempting to make firing the weapon smoother and cycling faster? If I'm wrong then please correct me. Before I put that buffer in my AK I read where they caused jam-ups, cause the bolt didn't go back far enough. It wasn't recommended for full auto, which I don't care about. Now Danger12 wants to put a buffer, which is different from the AK, in his AR and is hearing some negatives as well. If it's cheap to do and won't damage the AR then I say do it.
Crow Hunter
New member
Gunsmoke
The Buffer in the AR is an integral part of the design. It isn't something aftermarket that is added like on an AK. There are different weight buffers that are designed to balance the operating system for different barrel lengths and gas port positions/diameters and cycling speeds on full auto weapons.
The buffer on the AR rests touching the back of the bolt carrier group sitting on top of the bolt return spring. The "buffer" on the AK is at the rear trunnion and acts to keep the AK bolt carrier group from smacking the rear trunnion. Most "professional" AK users don't recommend using a buffer, if you are having trunnion strikes, they recommend replacing the recoil spring.
In Dangers case it won't hurt anything to use a heavier buffer. Worst case it will be too much mass for his gas port/ammo combination and it will just short stroke. Most likely won't let him shoot any faster though because the cycling mass of the bolt group will still be the same and the recoil of the round is a fixed given. I think it most likely will just spread the recoil out some since it will increase unlock time but I don't know for sure. I have never tried it, I just use the H buffer that came in my 6920 and have never messed around with changing it.
I do know that guys that are shooting in "racing" games usually go with a lighter weight carrier. I assume (and you know how that works
) that they do this to reduce the overall reciprocating mass to reduce recoil and increase cycling speed. But I could be wrong.
The Buffer in the AR is an integral part of the design. It isn't something aftermarket that is added like on an AK. There are different weight buffers that are designed to balance the operating system for different barrel lengths and gas port positions/diameters and cycling speeds on full auto weapons.
The buffer on the AR rests touching the back of the bolt carrier group sitting on top of the bolt return spring. The "buffer" on the AK is at the rear trunnion and acts to keep the AK bolt carrier group from smacking the rear trunnion. Most "professional" AK users don't recommend using a buffer, if you are having trunnion strikes, they recommend replacing the recoil spring.
In Dangers case it won't hurt anything to use a heavier buffer. Worst case it will be too much mass for his gas port/ammo combination and it will just short stroke. Most likely won't let him shoot any faster though because the cycling mass of the bolt group will still be the same and the recoil of the round is a fixed given. I think it most likely will just spread the recoil out some since it will increase unlock time but I don't know for sure. I have never tried it, I just use the H buffer that came in my 6920 and have never messed around with changing it.
I do know that guys that are shooting in "racing" games usually go with a lighter weight carrier. I assume (and you know how that works
) that they do this to reduce the overall reciprocating mass to reduce recoil and increase cycling speed. But I could be wrong.I've learned more from this thread than reading any of several AR owners manuals--Thanks, guys! I just put a new A2 stock on a 6.8 DPMS and discovered that the buffers (old and new) are different lengths. Trying to mentally cipher how the weight differences figure into proper function was giving me a headache! Now, I wonder if the spring tensions are similar?
sir_n0thing
New member
All AR type rifles have a buffer in them. They would not function properly without it.
The OP I believe is simply looking into a heavier buffer.
Changing the buffer weight can effect the rifle's functioning either positively or negatively, depending on a variety of factors involved such as gas system length, barrel length, ammo, etc.
EDIT: Doh! Didn't read all the replies before opening my mouth.
~ sent via Tapatalk from my andr0id ~
The OP I believe is simply looking into a heavier buffer.
Changing the buffer weight can effect the rifle's functioning either positively or negatively, depending on a variety of factors involved such as gas system length, barrel length, ammo, etc.
EDIT: Doh! Didn't read all the replies before opening my mouth.
~ sent via Tapatalk from my andr0id ~
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Looks like we've covered all the major points. A heavier buffer will add reciprocating mass (which can be a factor in muzzle flip); but will delay unlock a few microseconds so that the recoil is less sharp and more of a push. A lighter buffer will reduce reciprocating mass; but at some point will lead to function/battering problems and will shorten the unlock time so that recoil is sharper.
The OP was talking about moving while shooting. If you are even slightly out of position while doing this, you can get the muzzle flipping up and right or up and left (or randomly alternating) and it makes hammers more problematic as well as increasing split times in 3-gun. Short of practicing thousands of times until you can move and keep a good position, the other alternative is to minimize muzzle flip as much as possible with a combination of brakes, gas system, buffer and plain old weight/balance.
The OP was talking about moving while shooting. If you are even slightly out of position while doing this, you can get the muzzle flipping up and right or up and left (or randomly alternating) and it makes hammers more problematic as well as increasing split times in 3-gun. Short of practicing thousands of times until you can move and keep a good position, the other alternative is to minimize muzzle flip as much as possible with a combination of brakes, gas system, buffer and plain old weight/balance.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Undoubtedly; but it turns out that maintaining that perfect position where the sights go straight up and straight down while also moving at any real speed is a lot more difficult than doing it while you are standing still.
The less the barrel moves up to begin with, the less it takes to put you back on target if your position was less than perfect.
And to be more precise, it isn't a question of not being able to get back on target. It is a question of "How fast can you get back on target?"
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
Thank you Crow Hunter, it couldn't be explained any clearer. I've known the inner workings of the M16 for over 40 years and developed a terrible dislike for them, though many love the new and somewhat improved versions today. If you ever knew anyone who had to use one for a year that didn't work and ended up being killed because of it then you'd understand. At least they developed the forward assist to help a little.
I know what the buffer in the AR looks like, but didn't know the weight effect that it could have. Guess you can tell I prefer the AK and the buffer I placed in it certainly makes for a nicer shooting weapon with no negatives. I have mine for 24 years and it's been fun to shoot, but now after a couple of modifications it's become a real pleasure. Only problem is that I have so many different guns in my collection that there are some I've been aiming to shoot for over 20 years, but keep forgetting.
Sometimes it is better to leave it alone if it isn't broken. I've seen too many people take their beaut of a Colt SAA and have a butcher do an action job on them and they never quite seem to work as well again. It's OK to have a smooth action, but what's the good if when you squeeze the trigger and it doesn't go boom!
I know what the buffer in the AR looks like, but didn't know the weight effect that it could have. Guess you can tell I prefer the AK and the buffer I placed in it certainly makes for a nicer shooting weapon with no negatives. I have mine for 24 years and it's been fun to shoot, but now after a couple of modifications it's become a real pleasure. Only problem is that I have so many different guns in my collection that there are some I've been aiming to shoot for over 20 years, but keep forgetting.
Sometimes it is better to leave it alone if it isn't broken. I've seen too many people take their beaut of a Colt SAA and have a butcher do an action job on them and they never quite seem to work as well again. It's OK to have a smooth action, but what's the good if when you squeeze the trigger and it doesn't go boom!