223 headaches

9

9mmSkeeter

New member
How can I keep this from happening? When I load my frangible bullets it doesn't happen but I have a 50% "seat too far" rate with my SS 63gr Steel Penetrators. It just falls back into the case. I resize while I'm depriming and do not flare my cases. I have carpal tunnel and constantly pulling these suckers is killing me.

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I have frangible bullets, all of my frangible bullets have green paint for identification. I do not load them but if I did I would be using them to make greasy looking spots to identify bullet impacts.

I also see the shoulder/case body juncture looks as thought you are seating with the crimp section of the die engages while seating the bullet. A couple of manufacturers of dies have suggested seating and crimping is a bad habit.

I would suggest you sized the case and then check bullet hold with a bullet. I know, everyone says 'neck tension', I want all the bullet hold I can get meaning when sizing the case the neck must be sized down and then necked up with the sizer plug when the ram is lowered.

NOW: if you are new to reloading and have allowed yourself to jump into reloading with the newest and fancies dies available I can't help you because I suggest your learn to walk before you start running.

F. Guffey
 
Take this advice with a grain of salt. I ran into the same problem of seating bullets to deeply to where they just fell back into the case last year. It turned out that for me, the problem was that I had set the die too low so that it was crimping while I seated a bullet. My suggestion is that you back the die out so that it just touches the case mouth. If you try this, don’t forget that you’ll probably have to reset the seating plug as well.
 
If all bullets in general are seating too loosely, insufficient bullet hold, it might be that the expander button on the sizing stem is overly expanding. With your caliper, measure the inside neck diameter of a few fired and sized cases. If they measure around 0.211 or less, they should provide enough tension. But if around 0.220 or greater, they are over expanded. In which case, if the expander can be separated, chuck into your electric drill and with a fine stone reduce the diameter some until tighter bullet hold is achieved. Or emery paper can be used but will take longer.

That technique can be used for most any cases needing greater neck tension.
 
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A Lee neck sizer collet die would be very useful in this situation. It can tighten and standardize neck and tension. Something is wrong in your setup or adjustments. If the bullet falls in, you are not correctly sized. Die/shell holder adjustments may be off. My approach when I have a problem is to do each step one at a time to isolate where it is going wrong. You need to trouble shoot before using a progressive press. Turn off the indexing/advancement until fixed. Have calipers, case gauge and bullets on hand to test fit.
1. Deprime. Bullet will fall into case.
2. Size: Bullet should now not fall into or be easily pushed into case. If it does, STOP. You are not sizing correctly due to any number of factors. A full length resizing die with the neck expander ball in it, all properly adjusted, will NOT DO THIS. This is where you want to test with a bullet, will it drop through? Put the "sized" case in a case gauge for the correct caliber. Get out your caliber and measure inside and outside of the neck versus SAAMI specs.
3. If all that checks out, Are you using a "powder through" die that includes any flaring or expansion? Charge a case in it, and measure again.
I am thinking your sizing die setup and adjustment may be off. I recommend that you download the instructions from the die maker and re-set-up, from scratch following instructions painstakingly.
The case mouth in contact with your drop tube may work just fine. I use a powder funnel a lot and don't need to expand or flare.
I had this situation happen once. I had primed un sized case and thought they were sized. I had to disassemble some rounds and resize them.
 
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What type of sizing die do you use, a standard die or a bushing die? With or without an expander button?

I wouldn’t mess with the expander button, if it has one, until proven to be the cause of your problem. The expander on my standard .223 Rem sizing die leaves a neck ID of about .220-.221”. You don’t need more than .003-.004” of tension to hold a .224" bullet.

What are the ODs of the straight bearing surfaces of the frangibles vs the penetrators?

Does the loose bullet problem happen with the same brass as the ones that seat properly?.
 
It should be simple to find the problem. Size a case and see if your bullet can or cannot be forced into the neck by hand.

If it can, your expander is too big. If it cannot, chances are your sizer is Ok. If the case sizer is Ok, then the problem is with the bullet seater, and you have it set up improperly, so read the instructions again. Personally, I never crimp rifle rounds, so if you are doing that, remove it from the process.
 
I'm going to play Captain Obvious here.
You have shown us a picture of the problem. That's the end point.
The solution is not in the picture.(probably)
The solution,the root cause,is upstream of the problem.

We TFL members can guess at every possibility and send you on many trips through the bushes.

Much better that you use an organized troubleshooting process to find the problem. Assume nothing is good. Verify .
Do you have calipers?

I have no idea what dies you have. Its possible to buy used dies that are worn out or have been altered.Its possible to buy body dies that do nothing to the neck. I'm not going to chase all the possibilities.

Is the neck getting sized down ?
You can pass/fail that. If not..

Do what you need to do to ensure you can re-assemble your sizing die correctly. Remove the spindle from the die. Use the die body only.

Take a piece of unsized brass. Measure it. Neck diameter.

Lube your case. Size it. Measure it again. Did the neck get smaller? How much? Will a bullet enter the sized neck with your fingers? What does the neck ID measure(as well as you can measure with calipers)

Remember sizing the neck is a two part process. The neck is sized down undersize,by the sizing die body. Then back up by the expander ball on the spindle. We eliminated the variable of the spindle for now. We just want to find out if the die body is doing its job.
Its a pass/fail. Is the die body sizing the ID of the neck down to around .221 or less? Yes/No?
Now you know .
Measure the bullet OD. Assume nothing. Is it .224? Pass/Fail.

Now. If the neck has been verified sized down enough,evaluate if the expander ball is too big. Note: When you re-assemble,careful to center the spindle again,so you don't bend decap pins. Tighten the spindle lock collar with a piece of lubed brass up in the die,top of stroke,punch in the flash hole.

Etc.
But then you may have a collet type die...You might need to get more squeeze.
I don't have any collet dies yet.
Apply a one variable at a time check list of the reloading process.
If you do not know or understand the process,with all due respect,you are step one in the root cause trouble shooting chart.

Once you know the process,its simple to check it one step at a time.

That will be the straight line to solving the problem.

FWIW,a glance at the appearance of the neck does not show me the "tracks" of being sized down. That's good for suspicion. Verify with measurement.

It also may be possible that your frangible bullets need to be seated to depth "X" and that's fine,but depth "X" may be wrong for your 62 gr penetrators. Might you just be seating the 62 gr bullets too deep?
No disrespect intended,but I'm walking my talk. Assume nothing,check the process one step at a time.
 
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like others have suggested... resize/deprime as normal, and doing nothing else,
take that case and a bullet in your fingers only and try to shove the bullet
into the empty case.

Let us know....
 
higgite reports that his ID measurements are .220--.221 after sizing. I checked a few of my sized Rem cases and the majority came out at .214 with some at .213. This bullet hold is certainly sufficient but the ID could still go a little less, say around .211 to .212. The sizer is an RCBS and the expander is unaltered.

I agree with the post that stated that the case does not show any sizing marks.
 
I'm with Mehavey on this . Take a FL sized case and seat a bullet with your fingers .

You can first compare the diameter of the two different bullets .

What brand and model of die are you using ? Full length or neck only ?

Are you using the same seating die setting for both bullets
 
9MMSkeeter,Forgive me,but you mentioned you are experiencing some physical discomfort.
Is it possible you might be short stroking your press during the sizing operation?
That could explain necks not being sized down.
 
higgite reports that his ID measurements are .220--.221 after sizing. I checked a few of my sized Rem cases and the majority came out at .214 with some at .213. This bullet hold is certainly sufficient but the ID could still go a little less, say around .211 to .212. The sizer is an RCBS and the expander is unaltered.
Click to expand...

I'm not there. You might be exactly right. I'm not saying you are wrong.

.010 to .011 bullet to neck interference seems like a lot to me.

Higgite's .003 or .004 seems more what I would expect.

If you are measuring the ID with calipers...small hole ID's can be tricky with calipers.

Will you humor me? If you have a 7/32 drill bit,I'd guess the shank dia to be .217+. Or so.Try it like a pin gauge and see if it "goes"
 
What is the diameter of your bullet?

What is the id of the case neck after fl sizing?

Can you push a bullet into a sized case by hand?
 
condor bravo said:
I checked a few of my sized Rem cases and the majority came out at .214 with some at .213. This bullet hold is certainly sufficient but the ID could still go a little less, say around .211 to .212. The sizer is an RCBS and the expander is unaltered.
Click to expand...

CB, something isn't adding up. The expander in my RCBS sizing die measures .2225". My Forster is .222". Case neck IDs come out .221-.222". Can you measure the expander in your die and report back?
 
Yes things do seem strange. My expander measures .222. I checked some more IDs on the Rem cases and they keep coming out as .214. Could there be such a thing as spring-back going on? The inside measuring edges appear sharp on my caliper rather than flat which, if flat, could account for the smaller readings.

Late addition:
Also see following post to HiBC that offers some explanation.
 
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