223 crimping...

bjm42

New member
New @ loading 223 Rem for AR15 (5.56 & 1 in 9 twist stamped on receiver). Getting conflicting advice on crimp or no crimp. My concern is safety & reliability.
On cannelure bullets, is taper crimp okay; or light roll crimp?
On non-cannelure, is taper crimp best? Just trying to get it right, so advice is welcome. Thanks.
 
There are different opinions on crimping
every time some one ask the question
you will hear a lot from both sides so be prepared

for 223 with a cannalure a taper crimp is used
your seating die has the crimp section built in
some seat the bullet and then crimp separately
that's the way I crimp
some seat and crimp at the same time

I suggest you try a few rounds both ways ( crimped and no crimp )
to see which you prefer

On non cannalured bullets for 223
NO crimp
If you crimp them it will deform the bullet damaging it
causing all kinds of problems

I do not and never have crimped 223 even if the bullet
has a cannalure, the neck tension should be enough to
hold the bullet in place, if it does not you have a problem
usually with the case, the bullet or the sizing die and you
need to resolve that problem

The only time I crimp is for pistol cartages to close the bevel
used to install the bullet and for a gun with a tubular magazine
to keep the bullet from being pushed in the case from spring tension
in the magazine
 
When all is said and done I suggest you see what works best for you with your guns.

Personally I load for several rifles chambered in .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) and I just resize and seat my bullets be they cannelure or not. I rely on neck tension or call it bullet hold which amounts to maybe a slight taper crimp. I have never used a roll crimp or applied a crimp using, for example, the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) simply because the need never arose for any of my rifles. I also load brass which I sort and want uniform neck thickness.

Will it hurt anything to apply a roll crimp or a collet die type crimp? No, not if properly done. So it becomes a matter of what you develop and what works for you.

Ron
 
The answer is Yes. No. Red. Blue. Redhead. Brunette.

I however do prefer to crimp for the same reason the military does. A light taper crimp on bullets with a cannalure. On bullets with no cannalure, say little 40 grainers I do use the crimp function but only ever so slightly, I like it to uniform the necks. Has worked great for me throigh thousands of rounds.

What kind of press are you using? If it were me on my single stage I would feel each bullet seat, if there was not feeling of the bullet seating Id chuck it in the to-be-crimped pile.
 
At one time I examined a lot of 30 cal military loads by pulling them down. The match loads had neither a crimp nor neck hold. The bullets were glued in place with pitch sealant, and if you pulled one and used a Q-tip and some mineral spirits to dissolve the pitch out of the neck and off the bullet, the bullet could be easily pushed into and pulled out of the neck by hand.

The M2 ball ammo I looked at had been made the same way, but a Lee Factory Crimp type of collet crimp had been applied that significantly deformed the midsections of the bullets. You can see how they would be concerned that in combat automotive fuel or other things that could dissolve the pitch might get onto some ammo and slowly loosen the grip of the pitch on the bullet.

For handloads I've never seen a bullet fail to be held adequately by its press-fit into a resized case neck, something the old military ammo didn't have. If you have a crimp cannelure and intend to use it, you normally use a roll crimp or a taper crimp with a fairly steep angle so its pressure on the brass below it doesn't get stopped by or wind up distorting the bullet just below the cannelure. Where a taper crimp really comes into its own on a rifle cartridge is when you have a flared neck from an expander for cast bullets. Where that also helps with jacketed rifle bullets is if you get one of the Lyman M dies and set it up just to put a small step inside the case mouth. The step hold the bullet centered and upright as you start it into the seating die (no more hanging on with your thumb and index finger until the bullet tip is inside the die mouth). This also causes bullets to seat straighter into the neck which produces an actual accuracy improvement, but you need to iron out the step afterward, and just kissing it with a shallow angled taper crimp die does that nicely.

The Lee Factory Crimp die's collet style crimp indents a bullet under the crimp area. You can seat a cannelure down to meet that crimp or ignore it. The main argument has been whether this indenting helps or creates problems. The answer is, it depends. If the distortion is all pretty far forward of the bottom of the bullet bearing surface and doesn't distort the base or boattail shoulder at all, the impact of a shallow symmetrical distortion on ballistics is typically indiscernible. Bear in mind that rifling engraving marks don't bother a bullet's ballistics because they are shallower than the air boundary layer that forms over the moving bullet. A shallow crimp indentation (no deeper than rifling engraving) will be the same way. However, the deeper you apply such a crimp the greater the likelihood of the distortion becoming asymmetrical, moving the bullet's center of gravity off its longitudinal axis and causing the bullet to wobble in flight, both widening groups and reducing effective ballistic coefficient, though that latter effect wouldn't only show up at very long ranges.

As Lee claims, crimps do increase start pressure, improving powder ignition consistency, and that can result in tighter groups in some guns over some ranges. That applies to any form of crimp if it is consistent. An advantage the Lee tool has toward consistency is that small differences in case trim length have no effect on how firm its crimp is, as they would with roll and taper crimps into a cannelure.

The bottom line is you get to try this stuff out to see how it does in your gun. Note that no commercial match loads use crimps because everybody is concerned about distorting the bullets. But, unlike the sealed military ammo, the commercial match loads do have a bullet press fit into the narrowed neck holding onto the bullet with something like 30-40 lbs of force in the .223, and these all work fine in AR's, so this isn't a functional issue. For the usual handloader not hauling the ammo into a war zone, it's really just a matter of seeing if an accuracy improvement is to be had from using a crimp in your equipment with your components.
 
223 crimping

Thanks for clearing my head on this question.
I will start by making "comparison batches", with & without light taper crimp. I understand that on non-cannelure bullets, only the lightest touch is okay.
 
2

To answer Chainsaw's question; I am using a Forster C0-AX press. Very pleased with the precision & consistency. I admit to being very OCD on loading 223, as they are for my son. Of course, I'm careful with my own (30-06, 9mm, & 38 spl +P) loads & this forum helps keep me on the safe side.
Thanks to all, for welcome input.
 
I do not crimp any rifle rounds that are not going into the tube magazine of my lever actions. The step is not needed, and the pay off for doing it is not there for me. My .223 loads with premium powder, and bullets gives me 1/4 MOA from a bolt action. My AR has irons and it will give half inch or better 10 shot groups at 50 yards slow fired off a sand bag. (My eyes are not that great to consider 100 yard groups with irons.)
 
I do not crimp .223 or 5.56.
I'm not an advocate of crimping unless there is a reason,ie,revolvers,tube magazines,etc and the bullet is designed for it.

Now,devil's advocate....There are folks who strongly believe that when an AR has blow-up,kaboom,or whatever you want to call it

(According to them) High on the list of probable cause is 1)Lack of crimp,causing 2)Bullet setback,causing 3) (according to their quickload numbers) astronomical pressures.(quote"well over 100,000 psi) from bullet setback in an AR.

They also assure us via the number of AR's they have blown up,seen blown up,or had pieces hit them from down the firing line,we darn near need a Senate Subcommittee to take up investigating all the guns blowing up across the country due to not crimping .223/5.56 when loading for self loading rifles.

I began loading for an AR in the 1960's as a young en,using crude and questionable practices,and I've never so much as stuck a bolt,let alone been around a blown AR.

But I have known fools who blew up about anything,including Ruger 77.Thats not easy.

IMO,it almost always takes A)wrong powder B) Double charge) C) Bore obstruction.

I do recognize setback as a pressure issue with handguns.

I'm a skeptic in most cases with bottleneck rifle cartridges........

I'm still open to learning something,if Uncle Nick would care to share
 
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Case neck tension can be increases two ways,
1. REDUCING expanding ball size, don't open the case neck up to stupid size in the first place...
2. Crimping. Crushing the neck into the bullet.

ARs in particular are hard on rounds.
A little emery cloth on ramp edges, just knock the knife edge/burrs off.
Do the same for the under side of magazine lips.
Feeds MUCH better.

If that still doesn't do it for you,
ACCURATELY MEASURE the expander ball pulled out of the sizing die.
Use lapping compound (abrasive & grease) in a piece of leather, or even your fingers.
Turn the primer punch/sizer rod with a drill motor.
Go SLOW, test often. This is a 'Circle', so it doesn't take much to make a big change.

Despite what a company trying to sell you a product says,
Remember, they are trying to sell you a product...

Crimping RARELY improves accuracy in my experience,
AND ITS REALLY HARD ON THE BRASS, work hardening the mouth opening to an extreme level.

Roll/Taper crimp dies require the brass to be trimmed to an EXACT length to have any chance at all of a 'Uniform' crimp at all.

A collet type 'Factory' crimp die will give a much better chance at a 'consistant' crimp, requires the cases to be headspace sized uniformly since the factory crimp die indexes off the case shoulder.
This is also an added process in the loading.
 
Don't bother with a crimp...it adversely affects accuracy and isn't needed to keep bullets in place. Rod
 
I am one who likes a collet crimp on rifle rounds to be fed through a semi auto. Bullet setback is the main reason. I had a 223 chambered AK that would set back ammo. About every hundred rounds I would fire one that had double the muzzle blast and slightly more recoil. This happened 3 times and I finally figured out the bullet guide apparently was out of spec and occasionally it would set the bullet back upon chambering. This happened with factory ammo. I replaced the bullet guide and never had another issue. None the less, I like to crimp my AR reloads for extra insurance. I know an AR chambering a round is about 1/10th as violent as an AK with with a faulty bullet guide, but still I want the insurance.

HiBC, I agree that setback is a far greater issue with straight walled cases. It will cause overpressure in a bottleneck cartridge also, though. Not enough to blow the gun, but it probably would have eventually had I ignored the problem.
 
To guard against bullet setback, I also do a light crimp on all my AR rounds with the Lee FCD except for wildcats. When I setup the die, I only turn it 1/2 turn or less. Doesn't seem to affect accuracy.
 
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I DO crimp 'Self Defense' rounds.
I use bullets with a cannlure and do use a light crimp from a collet style 'Factory Crimp Die'.

In the very unlikely event I ever get into another gunfight,
since I'm retired military the likelihood is remote indeed,
I crimp simply to remove one of the possibilities pertaining to 'Murphy's Law',

"What can go wrong WILL go wrong, and at the worst possible time & place"
 
I agree with Ed and Joe, Light crimp with a Lee FCD and rock and roll. Even bullets with no cannelure get a very light crimp even if its just for piece of mind but also for even across the board neck tension. As you can see most everybody does it their way so....
 
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