Ok. I have heard a lot about how the standard .223 cartridge is not a good combat round (at least in terms of stopping power)despite its use in our standard military rifle. So what I want to know is what commercially available .223 ammuntion would you use to maximize the combat effectiveness of your rifle in a theoretical military conflict? Assume that any commercially available FMJ, HP, or other round are acceptable.
.223 Combat Ammuntion?
- Thread starter GunFool
- Start date
Winchester Q3131A, it is 55gr ball M193 spec ammo made in Israel.
The stuff is super high quality, reliable and accurate. I use it in all my ARs. I had a guy shooting next to me at the last egg shoot I attended go 5 for 5 on grade A large eggs at 200yd shooting this ammo with a stock Ruger M77.
And it only costs me $150 per 1000!
Beware! Do NOT buy Winchester Q3131, that type has had some quality problems.
The stuff is super high quality, reliable and accurate. I use it in all my ARs. I had a guy shooting next to me at the last egg shoot I attended go 5 for 5 on grade A large eggs at 200yd shooting this ammo with a stock Ruger M77.
And it only costs me $150 per 1000!
Beware! Do NOT buy Winchester Q3131, that type has had some quality problems.
GunFool, IMO what you heard about "standard" .223 ammo is bunk. Either M193 Ball or M855 ball, fired from a 14.5" or longer barrel, is an excellent round for CQB.
If you anticipate being able to see and engage targets at over 300 meters, you may wish to move up to a .30 caliber firearm.
If you anticipate being able to see and engage targets at over 300 meters, you may wish to move up to a .30 caliber firearm.
A
AmericanFreeBird
Guest
Ammo depends on your barrel
If you've got a Ruger Mini-14 for instance, you'll want a 70gr bullet cause it's got a 1:9 twist. An AR with a 1:12 twist will find the 55gr more accurate cause it stabalizes well in a 1:12. So, depending on your barrel rifeling twist ratio you select the appropriate bullet weight and you'll get accurate shots. Type of bullet for best penetration again depends on bullet composition, maybe Barnes solid brass hollowpoints for a combat round?
If you've got a Ruger Mini-14 for instance, you'll want a 70gr bullet cause it's got a 1:9 twist. An AR with a 1:12 twist will find the 55gr more accurate cause it stabalizes well in a 1:12. So, depending on your barrel rifeling twist ratio you select the appropriate bullet weight and you'll get accurate shots. Type of bullet for best penetration again depends on bullet composition, maybe Barnes solid brass hollowpoints for a combat round?
Poodleshooter
New member
If you want to stick to military ball, the Winchester Q3131A is your best bet. I'd personally opt for 55-60 grain softpoint ammo. It's expansion effect is not "as" sensitive to velocity as the fragmentation effect of military FMJ.
http://www.ammoman.com has 3131A for $199 a thousand
they also have a deal on NIW AR mags 27 bucks each for centers & 17 each for 70 % used USGI
they will sell out soon!
dZ
they also have a deal on NIW AR mags 27 bucks each for centers & 17 each for 70 % used USGI
they will sell out soon!
dZ
Lord Grey Boots
New member
Don't they shoot AR-15's at Camp Perry at 600 yards? That sounds like long range to me. Agreed, its not going very fast once it gets out to that range.
As for "lousy stopping power", this was the Mogadishu problem. The 62 grain SS109 (?) out of a short barrell M4 didn't have enough velocity to tumble once it hit a scrawny Somalian clan member, and zipped right through.
The longer barrel M16's didn't see that problem. The 5.56/223 with its slower burning rifle powder likes rifle class barrel lengths and gives good speed.
As to the original question, out of the shorter barrels I would go for a softpoint/hollow point round, other than that, whatever you can get your hands on...
As for "lousy stopping power", this was the Mogadishu problem. The 62 grain SS109 (?) out of a short barrell M4 didn't have enough velocity to tumble once it hit a scrawny Somalian clan member, and zipped right through.
The longer barrel M16's didn't see that problem. The 5.56/223 with its slower burning rifle powder likes rifle class barrel lengths and gives good speed.
As to the original question, out of the shorter barrels I would go for a softpoint/hollow point round, other than that, whatever you can get your hands on...
Gunfool,
The debate rages on. I can't speak for the SS109 round but the M-193 round makes one big exit hole. Is the 7.62 NATO round better???? I've seen an NVA hit by a Ma Duce round and he was still able to fight. Where does it end in bullet size?????????
There's a lot of good military surplus on the market and a lot cheaper than the new manufactured ammo.
Turk
The debate rages on. I can't speak for the SS109 round but the M-193 round makes one big exit hole. Is the 7.62 NATO round better???? I've seen an NVA hit by a Ma Duce round and he was still able to fight. Where does it end in bullet size?????????
There's a lot of good military surplus on the market and a lot cheaper than the new manufactured ammo.
Turk
IamNOTaNUT
New member
As I recall from Blackhawn Down, they were having problems with the SS109 round in Somolia. Perhaps the lighter 55 grain rounds would work better on two legged varmints? Does anyone have any studies on this?
Jamie Young
New member
I've tried to get answers on the SS109 several times but the bullet velocity question is the only valid answer I've heard so far. I placed several posts here and in the Reloading Forum and didn't get too many answers on SS109. I have seen with my own eyes that the SS109 penetrated 1/4 steel plates at 100yds and It might be able to do that a little farther out. I think there are instances where the SS109 is better than the 55gr ball ammo but at close ranges against bad guys its probable less effective. I'm sure if it hit bone it would zip right threw unlike the 55gr ball ammo. I personally keep 69grHPBT in my PMI mags for my Mini-14 when I'm up in the mountains.
In rifle barrel lengths (18-20"), go with the M193 or M855 (62 gr w/ steel penetrator) out to 200 yards. The M855 stuff will penetrate the old issue steel helmet to 550 meters reliably. The M193 will also do it SOMETIMES.
All other ranges and barrel lengths, use 60 gr hollow points.
You are not going to drop someone at 800m with a M855 instantly but you will create a hole and as such, reduce his will to fight and move on. At 100 yards, you will make a big exit hole and remove the targets ability to live.
The big mistake here is thinking one needs to drop someone instantly at any range. In combat, if you can hit your enemy FIRST, chances are you will win.
The doctrine that prompted the shift to 5.56 was that of the USSR and their 7.62x39 round. The 5.56 will easily out-range it and accuracy is superior with the M16. In CQB, the velocity dependent effects make it far superior to most 7.62x39 rounds.
All other ranges and barrel lengths, use 60 gr hollow points.
You are not going to drop someone at 800m with a M855 instantly but you will create a hole and as such, reduce his will to fight and move on. At 100 yards, you will make a big exit hole and remove the targets ability to live.
The big mistake here is thinking one needs to drop someone instantly at any range. In combat, if you can hit your enemy FIRST, chances are you will win.
The doctrine that prompted the shift to 5.56 was that of the USSR and their 7.62x39 round. The 5.56 will easily out-range it and accuracy is superior with the M16. In CQB, the velocity dependent effects make it far superior to most 7.62x39 rounds.
Jamie Young
New member
I own a 22Magnum bolt action and I think it is one of the most underated cartridges. If you got shot by a 5.56 bullet at 500yds "In my opinion". Its EQUAL to getting shot by a 22Mag at point blank range!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats not going to tickle.