.223/5.56 Brass Swaging

M

M4Carbine503

Inactive
I know this topic has been hashed over many times before, but I have a little spin on it. I just upgraded my old single stage press to a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP press and I love it!! I am also in the process of aquiring the gear needed to reload .223/5.56 . I have 2,000 pieces of Lake City brass that need swaging. And before too many people start saying to ream out the primer crimps, I want to swage them out. So here's my question:

Which swager do I get? I have done months of research on this subject and everyone says to get a Dillon Super Swage 600. There are countless reviews on multiple forums endorsing the Dillon product. So I was set on purchasing one, and then several months back Hornady announced their Lock-N-Load AP Swaging Tool. I have been patiently sitting on my hands waiting for someone, ANYONE to come out with a review of the Hornady swager. But so far nothing! No one! It was a mixed bag of opinions when it was first introduced back last October as a future 2015 Shot Show release item from people on multiple forums. Those that were on the nay side were saying they already had a swaging system, (usually the Dillon Super Swage 600) and didn't see a point to buy something else when their Dillon already works great. OK, I can definitely see the logic in that. In fact I would agree if that was my situation. But I have yet to buy ANY swaging tool. The Dillon still looks like s definite contender, but the Hornady looks like a great system, IF it works as well as it appears. Does anyone have anything either positive or negative to say about the Hornady? I have waited this long to read a review and no one has said anything and I don't want to wait any longer. Summer is just about here and I am itching to get some quality trigger time in :)
 
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Is this for benchrest accuracy or rapid fire plinking?

The reason I ask is new-ish reloaders tend to buy equipment they just don't need. I've reloaded thousands of 223's and seldom need anything more than a chamfer tool on the most agressive crimps. I suppose a swaging setup would be preferable for benchrest but for M4-gery volume reloading just isn't needed.
 
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For easy swaging

For easy swaging
1. Get a 1/2" countersink bit in a drill. prep each case for one second on the drill bit.
2. Then swage away.

If you are in a hurry, skip step two.

If you are NOT in a hurry start with step 2.
After that does not work to your liking, proceed to step 1.
 
CH4D makes the best swager kit I have seen. Even comes with small and Large primer arms to give you another option of installing primers off a press. Affordable and, very effective. I just love it and highly recommend you giving them a call. You won"t be sorry you did. Just type it into your search engine and, go to you tube to watch it in action. Guys are claiming 600-700 pieces swaged/hour. After using it, I'd agree. God Bless
 
It is only one data point, but I have been using the RCBS swaging tool for about 40 years, on all sorts of brass (9mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 7.62, .30-06), and it has done the job just fine. Once you get the hang of it, it is also pretty fast.
 
60 degree male chamfer casing tool. You probably already have one in your stash. Chuck it up in a drill press, few seconds later, crimps all removed and you have a nice chamfer that aids in the starting of the new primer ;)
 
I've got the RCBS swaging tools that install in the press, and I find them a pain in the butt to use.
The press often don't have the mechanical leverage to swage so you have to bang on the press handle,
And the swager likes to stick in the brass and you have to bang on the handle to knock it loose...

I use a champfer tool in a drill,
Super fast, works like a champ in about one second, doesn't care how hard the brass is.
 
60 degree male chamfer casing tool. You probably already have one in your stash. Chuck it up in a drill press, few seconds later, crimps all removed and you have a nice chamfer that aids in the starting of the new primer
Click to expand...

Works for me too . :D
 
First off, yes I will be primarily bench rest shooting. I don't shoot in any competition, but I try and be as accurate as I can be for my own satisfaction, part of my ocd. Aside from accuracy, my primary goal is to get as many reloads out of my brass as possible. And I have heard that reaming out the primer pockets instead of swaging them will make for a looser primer pocket sooner. Next would be hand fatigue, ease, and less mess than reaming. Is there something I'm missing?
 
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You're missing how common and plentiful 223/5.56 brass is. Literally billions made, and not necessary to re-use the same 100 cases over and over. They're not something rare like 6.8 SPC. Clean the primer pockets, buzz off the crimp if necessary with the $2 chamfer bit.
 
M4Carbine503,

I own the Dillon tool, and there are a couple of drawbacks to high precision shooters. One is to swaging in general. When you run the swaging ram into the primer pocket it pushes the crimp aside, moving the brass to the perimeter of the primer pocket. So you now have a shallow crater wall around the primer pocket. At the first firing this flattens back out. If a crimp was really bad, it may flatten enough of that brass back out to force you to swage a second time to get good primer seating feel. But the main thing is that the raised perimeter will tend to meet the bolt face first when the head stretches back, and that can alter the recoil moment a little. We're talking here about the kind of thing that affects groups smaller than half moa, so it's nit picky, but it's there. So be aware the very best performance may not arrive until the second loading after firing the head flat.

In the Dillon tool, specifically, there is an anvil that the swaging operation works against. From a high precision point of view, this is better than one that works against the case rim and may bend it, as a bent rime will impact recoil moments even more than a raised central area. But, again, it all flattens back out against your bolt fast on the next firing after performing the operation.

The Dillon anvil avoids that rim bending potential, but the anvil flattens any flash hole burrs out, and often bends them right over the flash hole, where they interfere with the ignition consistency you want for high precision. So, for high precision, you want to use a flash hole deburring tool before you run the cases through the Dillon swager. You can do it afterward, but you'll find the depth of the swage is more consistent with them removed first.

Do not ignore that different makes of brass have different head thicknesses, and that affects the anvil position you need to set. So you will want to sort your brass by headstamp before swaging.

Finally, the Dillon anvil rod can occasionally fail to center the case exactly. It's not often, but I've mangled a few over time. This accessory insert set from another maker corrects that for you.

Looking at the Hornady tool and reading the instructions, I can tell you uses the anvil method (the 5 posts on it are anvils) and so will have the same problem with flash hole burrs the Dillon does, and it will require you to sort your cases by headstamp, same as the Dillon does. Because it runs on the press, it is more complicated than the Dillon as it has to adapt the press. But since the price is close to the same (unless you buy those aftermarket centering inserts, which there is no need to begin with), the main disadvantage to you is that you have to stop and mount the LNL tool to your press to use it, where the Dillon is its own independent tool, allowing you to leave the press set up for loading.

Also, the Dillon gives you Dillon customer service, which, as of this writing, generally enjoys a better reputation than Hornady customer service. My 600 super swage, for example had a casting flaw and it cracked the frame the second week I had it. A call to Dillon and I had the new frame in a couple of days. No questions asked, no returning the bad part, no BS, lifetime (yours, not the tool's) warranty. It's what you get in return for paying a little more.
 
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Wow, thank you Unclenick for the info and tips!! You have certainly made me look closer to the Dillon tool. I never considered deburring the flash holes at all. I had read where some folks did debur, but I didn't thing it was really that important. I still wouldn't mind hearing from someone who has used the Hornady tool, but you have persuaded me to lean to the Dillon as of now. Thanks again! :)
 
As you can see by the varied answers, reloading tool choices boil down personal choice. Some will swear by Grafco's super duper semi automatic primer pocket swager (available for $$$$) while others tout the benefits of a simple Cooveler's countersink (available at most hardware stores for $). I'd find out what I want my tool to do (remove the primer crimp or reform the entire head/primer pocket) and determine which tool is best for my particular needs. Reviews can and often are skewed by the reporter's like/preference for a specific manufacturer or even the color of the tool. (FWIW; I worked for 25 years as a heavy duty equipment mechanic for a very large city department of Water and Power. I observed the "tool snobs" that would only purchase a specific manufacturer's tools, whether it was just because they were the most expensive available, or the tools their favorite NASCAR pit crew used or a TV motorcycle builder used, and rarely by the usefulness or quality of the tool. And everything else, other than their choice, was junk!). "Tool Snobbery" is apparent in reloading too, with some folks recommending tools from their favorite manufacturer regardless of the quality or usefulness of the tool and if there is a better choice.:rolleyes:

I guess this post ("story/rant") is meant to say, asking a tool question about tools on a reloading forum is gonna get as many answers as there are tool manufacturers. Not necessarily a bad thing, just be aware! :D
 
Ok so let me ask you this, has anyone noticed reaming out the primer crimps shortens the primer pocket life in relation to becoming too loose compared to swaging out the crimps?
 
M4Carbine503 said:
Ok so let me ask you this, has anyone noticed reaming out the primer crimps shortens the primer pocket life in relation to becoming too loose compared to swaging out the crimps?
Click to expand...

Yes. This is the main reason I quit using a hand swaging tool. First you need to securely hold the casing which I was clamping them in a vice , then as you try to rotate the tool you naturally flex your wrist which ultimately puts a slight taper in the primer pocket bores. This redundant method got old real quick, then I was tought the "quick chamfer" method, and I took this one step further and bought a used Lyman case prep center. This tool is a HUGE time saver ! Unfortunately I believe the LCPC's are discontinued..


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/211733/lyman-case-prep-xpress-case-prep-center-115-volt
 
Loose primer pockets not an issue

No, reaming the primer pockets has not resulted in primer retention issues.
I have had ONE case not hold a primer, and it was not a reamed one, but, the source of that particular case was desert range pickup, and there is no telling what it went through before I picked it up. I have reloaded over 1000 LC and FC cases, some as many as 5 times already (during my ownership), and it just is not an issue. You only remove a shallow ring of brass at the top of the primer. Even if you over do it, there is plenty of sidewall left to hold the primer.
 
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I use a Lyman pocket reamer by removing the reamer from the handle and chucking it in a drill. I also drilled a hole in a block of wood that I insert the shell case in to hold it and even though is sort of a PITA and a slower process it works well. I've thought about swaging, but I bought a bunch of brass that had been swaged and had a lot of problems with Remington primers falling out. I was able to still use these cases in my standard loads since the CCI's would still seat nice and snug in these cases. Long story short, I've decided not to get a swager because of this. And once the Remington primers are used up I won't use them again.
 
M4CArbine503 said:
…has anyone noticed reaming out the primer crimps shortens the primer pocket life in relation to becoming too loose compared to swaging out the crimps?
Click to expand...

No. Only if the reamer is not run straight into the primer pocket does over-cutting become a problem. Some, like the reamer for the Wilson trimmer, have everything aligned by a shell holder and tool journal and can't make a pocket oval. The swagers have the advantage of not needing to do anything but move the crimp. If the rest of the swaging ram is minimum primer pocket diameter, it won't move the sides of some primer pockets at all.

But even if it does widen a pocket a little, you ought to be able to get a lot of loads out of each case. It is only when the head is being expanded that it's and issue, and at moderate pressures that doesn't occur during normal case life. It's only people driving things at the high end that have and issue. And then you have to keep in mind that most people don't know exactly what pressure they are actually loading to. Indeed, and old rule of thumb is that when primer pockets get loose in 5 reloads or fewer, that's a pressure sign. Even a maximum spec primer pocket should not let primers get loose that early if pressures are normal.
 
just my opinion, if I had an AP instead of the Pro 2000, I still would buy a bench swager. I just don't want to have to set up the press more than once for a caliber.

I have the new RCBS Bench Swager, which is very similar to Dillon's in function. The differences are in ergonomic preferences. The over the bench-edge, Dillon lever is fine, unless the sideways top of the bench lever is personally preferable. Obviously for me it is. But, both designs work great. The RCBS can share bench space with a press and/or a Trim Mate....at the same time. Again it's a personal preference thing.

What I discovered with my progressive and swaging is the need for dependability. You don't want a tight pocket every 10 primers when you're trying to load a session without stoppages. Swaging is great except when it isn't.....it isn't when the pocket edge can catch the edge of a new primer. That can happen when a case springs back a little and need a swage again. Rather than deal with that I do the following:

To prevent that occasional edge catch, I use a Trim Mate at the same time.....I 1.deburr the flash hole, 2.swage, 3.touch the pocket to a reamer to "round" the sharp edge left, and 4. uniform the pockets. That whole 2-tool operation takes no more than 5 seconds per round.....which results in zero progressive stoppage.
 
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