.22 vs .45

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BMC

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I just knew that my post would get your attention pros!

I've been debating with myself if whether I should even post this stupid question or not.
A friend of mine showed me his Walther PPK in .22 cal. Nice gun and all but the debate started when he pulled out a box of ammo and made the comment-"THESE .22s HAVE THE STOPPING POWER OF A .45 cal. BULLET".

After I finished laughing my asstronaut :) off we got into a long debate about the absurdity of it all.

Not only that, but it says on the box a warning that these bullets go at least a mile or 3km. and precautions should be taken.
The box did not specifiy if it was MAXIMUM or EFFECTIVE range.

The name of the bullets? Drum roll please...Stinger.

I was expecting to see depleted plutonium on top of the slug or at least a miniature chainsaw but all I saw was an itsy bitsy hollowpoint.

I gave a lecture about bullet weight, size, density,stopping percentages, etc. but the guy just wouldn't budge from his statement.
I'm still laughing as I type this!

To all the pros out there I ask you. Are the statements made by my friend completely out of this world, galaxy, and universe? Or am I just astronimically ignorant about the secrets of the almighty powerful .22?

The ONLY two reasons for me even thinking of putting up this post is to educate one of us AND to steer away ANOTHER friend that is now debating whether he should buy a .22 or stick to his original plan of buying a .380 (home defense on a budget).

Hopefully you can talk some sense into him (and my other friend) before I dare him to shoot me with his Walther .22 and if I still stand then he better brace himself for my HK USP .40! No head/face shots please.
Maybe I should have posted this in the jokes department.

p.s. hi to eug,dax,and mikey :)


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RONIN - samurai with no masters
 
The short answer is no the 22 does not have the "stopping power" of any 45. Maybe your friend is mistaking (muzzle) velocity for energy. Show him/her a comparison of muzzle energy and downrange energy and you both will see a major difference. In muzzle velocity the 22 actually has an edge over the 45, but the mass of the 45 will carry more energy farther than the mass of the 22 will. An example would be to each of you take two rocks, one smaller and lighter (golfball sized) while the other is larger and heavier (baseball sized), throw each one. You can probably throw the smaller one faster but the larger one farther. That's the mass carrying the load (momentum).
As to the range warning on boxes; that is the (theoritical) mazimum range of the ammunition, not taking into account obstacles, etc. Effective range of any ammunition is substancially less than it's maximum range. An overly simplistic explanation of effective range of small arms ammunition is the range at which a competent operator can aim, discharge their weapon and hit what they are aiming at with regular repeatability. Maximum range is the farthest range that the projectile will travel using the most favorable sighting plane (not necsssarily using the sights though) for distance. An example would be pointing the weapon up at an angle of around 15 degrees or so.
If using a handgun for home defense or self protection there are a myraid number of better choices but remember the first rule of gunfighting; Bring a gun. The 22 is better than nothing, though more than likely it's a contact (or near contact) weapon.
 
A .22 is only good for self-defense when the person shooting it is an EXPERT with the weapon - meaning that at 25 yrds, shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger, you NEVER miss a head shot.

A .22 hitting anywhere but full, straight-on, DIRECT contact with the head is NOT a man-stopper. Because we are talking SELF-DEFENSE, you should be able to put 3 bullets
in a 3" circle centered around the spot between the eyes. (Back of the head shots means he wasn't posing a direct threat to you)
 
Simple, effective demonstration of the difference between .22 and 45:

Take Stingerboy and his mousegun to the range. Bring along a couple of cantaloupes. Shoot one with a .22LR hollowpoint. Shoot the other with a .45ACP hollpoint. Then ask him which one took more damage.

For a FAR more effective demonstration, obtain a couple of mannequin heads and fill them with scrambled eggs and ketchup. :)

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
32acp is considered weak yet it would go through an old fridge that I used for a test. .22 fired from a Ruger MK1 did not even penetrate the front door. .22 would be fine if you have the aim and the time to fire ten or fifteen of them into proper portion of the attacker...not too realistic an approach.
 
"Never cause your enemy a minor injury"

-Machiavelli

Or something like that. Add this to the list of bad info out there about firearms, bullets and "stopping power."

Like the time a gunstore clerk told me and my dad the .270 was "too small" for deer.

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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper
 
.22 better for self-defense than a .45! YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would almost feel undergunned with a .22 in a knife fight.

Not to knock your friends intellegence, to error is human after all...

But I hope your friend is willing to admit his ommission of error. To believe that a fast little .22 does what a .45 can do when it hits its target borders on the absurd. If that was the case, all of us .45 shooters would save a "LOT" of money on using .22s. It would make no sense to manufacturer .45s at all!!! A box of .45s runs around $12 for 50. .22s run about $12 for 550! I wish a .22 could do what a .45 did...

I would be a richer $$$ man if that where true!!!



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SURE SHOT
 
CCI Stingers do pack a whollop COMPARED TO OTHER 22 ammo... but really.. here is a VERY EASY TEST to prove him wrong.

Get your old phone books and stack 6 to 10 of them in a line.. wet them with a garden hose.

Fire a 22 stinger from his walther into the phone books and see how far the bullet penetrated and expanded. Do the same with ANY 45 hollow point.

NOW in this test , niether bullet may expand totally but the point is to compare the two calibers on the same target under controlled conditions. (BE SURE OF YOUR BACKSTOP the 45 bullet will go a LONG WAY) This is POOR MAN's 10% ordinance gelatin. You can do the same test in oil-based clay or a LARGE Block of soap. Again be VERY sure of your backstop.

Stingers have their uses, like varmints etc. But at rifle velocities they tend to "explode" on impact leaving "cratering" wounds which look nasty.. but don't penetrate enough to be lethal on larger animals. In general they are TOO light for game species (like squirrel etc) and the velocity can be BRUTAL on auto laoders (this from an article about 22 lr loads from Shooter's bible)

The average cantaloupe or watermelon won't slow down a 45 bullet enough to show a good comparison. More likely the 22 would deliver a violent slatter and the 45 would go right through without expanding... leaving a tiny self sealing hole on the other side.

hope it helps,

Dr.Rob
 
It's good that your friend has confidence in his pistol. Unfortunately, the only way a .22 has the same stopping power as a .45, is if you throw the .45 bullet instead of shooting it. Okay, that's an exaggeration, it would depend on how good your arm is. :)

I love my .22's, but in no way is it superior to a .45 as a defensive round. I don't know of any LEO, special forces, or other who would opt for a .22 instead of a .45.

As far as the 1 to 3 mile range warning written on the box, that is just legal mumbo-jumbo to cover the manufacturers butt.
 
Set up a cenderblock. Shoot it with the 22 first. (use the 22 first cause its not gonna do much damage) then shoot it with the 45. Then ask him which has more power.

Simple huh ?

P.S. Save some eggs and ketchup for me.

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TIM : )
 
Pete, now that I have a digicam, I'm gonna do it again this weekend and take pix of the results. You'll be... impressed. Scares the hell out of kids, which is exactly the point. :)

Dr. Rob, good point about the lack of resistance with cantaloupes. I use Hydra-Shoks in my demos, which seem to open up great at the slightest provocation.

I have some old Polaroids of some grapefruit that I shot with a .38 snubbie, to compare ball with hp. The ball just zipped on through, while the hp (also a Hydra-Shok, IIRC) ripped the fruit right in half and blew out most of the back. I'll scan and post them Real Soon Now.

The pix, that is, not the fruit itself. :)

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
BMC: That "Range 1 mile. Be careful." is the maximum range. For a .45 ACP, 230-grain GI load, it's about a half a mile.

Wind resistance makes the difference, mainly.

FWIW, Art
 
Thanks pros! I am really really sorry to even bother you with such nonsense but I just needed some of your input so I can e-mail him this page.
But you have to admit, I got your attention! :)
Maybe even a few chuckles too!

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RONIN - samurai with no masters
 
I don't know, I kind of like my starter fluid cans and road flare targets too much. I sit a can out at 50 yards with one ignited flare at the base of the can. Square off with my .22 rifle and pop the can, it explodes and ignites the fluid. It makes for a pretty sweet fireball (even in the day)
 
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