.22 conversion kits for 1911...tell me about them

D

DC

Moderator Emeritus
I know nothing about these except that it allows .22 shooting from a 1911 .45.

So, I'd appreciate the following:

1) a brief tech explanation on how it works, can a .22 still rack the slide?...also can one still fire .22 in semi-auto? Parts...barrel, mag, what else?
2) Can a non-smith do the conversion? How easy to interchange between calibers?
3) Brands, price range, etc
4) Performance: how hard to sight in? perf specs compared to a comparable real .22

Many thanks

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
www.22lrconversion.com
The Ceiner conversion unit swaps onto the 1911 frame in 30 to 60 seconds. Ciener makes the conversion unit in a fixed sight and adjustable version. They also make the units for Wilson Combat and Kimber. If the 1911 is stock, there should be no problems with the swap. Mine fits my Kimber OK, but because my Colt Commander uses a different ejector, the unit will not work on it. The unit consists of a slide,barrel recoil spring and magazine. The barrel is all steel, and the slide is aluminum. The light weight of the slide gives the 1911 a little bottom heavy feel, but after a mag or 2 you get the hang of it. Remove the .45acp mag, remove the slide and barrel, and install the conversion. Accuracy is dependent on the ammo used. Mine shoots best with CCI Stingers, but accuracy is on a par with most of my other .22's w/just about any ammo. Function has been 100% in the year I've had mine. The Platinum version, which has the adjustable sights is the better one to use. I bought the fixed sight version simply because my local deal had one in stock. The fixed sight runss $199.00 and the adjustable runs $249.00 direct from Ciener or through Dillon. Kimber and Wilson charge $259.00/$299.00 for their versions. www.wilsoncombat.com and www.kimberamerica.com are the respective websites for each. Wislon has recently been running ads in the gun rags, complete with targets shot with their conversion being used. I believe the target is something like under an inch at 25 yards from a rest. By way of comparasion, my scoped Ruger Mark II will do that all day long, and sometimes will shoot half that sized group. Nothing I have with open sights comes close. With the Ciener on my Kimber I can hit a spent 20 ga shell suspended by dental floss at 25 yards often enough to keep it interesting. My Ruger 22/45 is somewhat better, but not much. You may not win any Bullseye matches with it, but it isn't a gimmick or junk. It's a solid well made unit.
I recommend the adjustable sight version over the fixed sight version. It took a little banging on the rear sight of mine to get it positioned correctly.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 26, 2000).]
 
DC:
There's really only one thing you need to keep in mind about any subcaliber adapter rig for full sized pistols: For approximately what it costs to acquire one, you can buy a whole .22 pistol that doesn't require fitting or fiddling to make it ready for a shooting session, and won't disable your big gun while it's in use. Shooting a Ruger .22/45 or Military High Standard (two examples with which I'm familiar) will do just as much good for your centerfire skills as practice with an expensive new topside for your 1911.--slabsides

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If they take our guns, I intend to let my hair grow long and acquire the jawbone of an ass.
 
Unlike the Ciener which has an aluminum slide, The Colt Ace Conversion kit (the Original Ace and not Colt's Ace II) uses a steel slide which approximates the weight and "heft" of the original 1911. Like the Ceiner, the Ace is blowback operated.

The heart of the Ace is the Williams floating chamber. The chamber is a clever free-floating insert which fits into the .22 caliber barrel. Upon firing, the floating chamber forces the slide back, allowing for extraction, ejection and feeding. Since the Ace is blowback operated, the fixed barrel remains in place during the firing sequence. Only the lightened steel slide, of which ligthening cuts are all internal and not externally visible, and floating chamber move.

The drawback to Colt's Ace Conversion is fouling. Cleaning is necessary after each session and lead buildup will eventually "weld" the chamber to the barrel. While this is easily remedied with light taps of a brass mallet and lead scraped away with a brass scraper, when "welded together", the chamber ceases to "float" and becomes integral with the barrel.

The Ace Conversion kit comes with a lightened steel slide, ejector, barrel, floating chamber, barrel bushing, slide stop, recoil spring, and magazine. It is installed in the same manner as a normal .45 Govt. model Colt. Assembled to the frame, the gun weighs 36 ounces.

Operation of the Colt with the Ace Conversion does not differ from its .45 brethen. With the slide locked to the rear and muzzle pointed in a safe direction, insert a loaded magazine. Rack the slide back and allow it to go home. Aim and fire.

As far as I can tell, apart from the magazine which looks like the original Ace magazine, the newer Colt Ace II are no different from Ceiner. It features an aluminum slide and the floating chamber has been discarded as unneccessary because of the lighter slide.
 
Oh, forgot to discuss ducats. The original Ace Conversion can go anywhere from $300-$350, depending on the condition. The Ace Conversion was made for the Model '70 and again for the Model '80s. About 5-7 years ago, I payed $375 for a NIB Ace Conversion kit for the Model '80. It didn't even come in the simulated wood box of the original Ace Conversion and was packaged in the more modest corrugated cardboard box. Never used it either since I have an Ace Conversion for the Model '70 which I use.
 
First, I'll preface this with....I love you guys, you did give me tech!
I'm thinking about a kit for my original stock WW2 issue M11911A1 mil issue (was my Dad's courtesy of USMC)....possible?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Slabsides...
Muchas gracias, point considered and you gave me something else to consider....
I live in Calif...I don't want to buy a new gun (capishe?)...so, are conversion kits run thru NICS and is there a wait period?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC, I have the ciener platinum cup conversion. It has the adjustable sights. Accurate and reliable. Goes right on my kimber and fits tight. I also live in California if you send money they will send the unit right out. Also you can get them in stainless color or black.
 
The conversion units are not considered firearms,by federal rules therefore no FFL is needed to transfer it, no NICS, and no waiting period=$$$ saved for ammunition. I am quite certain once the other *loopholes* are closed, they'll get around to this one too. [sarcastic Bill Curtis frown] I mean sooooo many gang bangers use black powder and sub cal conversions [/sarcastic Bill Curtis frown].

The Ciener should just drop onto your 1911.

FWIW, I looked at the Colt Ace before I bought the Ciener. I believe the extra money for the Ace is well worth it, and the Ace will last much longer simply because of the steel slide. I went Ciener simply because when the slide eventually does wear out, I can replace the entire unit, and still have spare parts to use in the new one. So far though, in a few thousand rounds, I have seen zero wear. Pieces parts for the Ciener are also available from Ciener, Wilson and Kimber as well as Dillon Precision. As far as the concerns over the aluminum/steel contact of the slide to frame go. A good fluoropolymer grease such as DSX works well, and a dry lube inside the magazine makes even very soft lead slugs feed OK. Keep the Ciener well lubed, with grease and a light coating of Rem Oil, and it works fine. Just don't overdo it.

There is also another conversion unit that was mentioned somewhere on TFL a few months back. I can't remember the name, but the accuracy claims were impressive.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
To throw a spanner in the works, why hasn't anyone mentioned the Jarvis unit?
All steel slide, locks back on the last round, you can SAFELY shoot LOTS of high velocity ammo through it without damage & lastly it has a steel mag & will accept Colt Ace mags. :)
Sounds like a better deal to me! http://www.jarvis-custom.com/


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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail hotshot_2000@hotmail.com
Alternate E-mail
HS2000@ausi.com
 
I have a Ceiner Platinum for my Kimber and the only problem I have with it is it doesn't cycle reliably with cheap ammo (WW Wildcat). If I buy the good stuff and keep it clean, it works fine. Ceiner recommends target grade ammo so I haven't tried HV stuff like Stingers yet. Sonds like a good idea if accuracy doesn't suffer. Jarvis also make a conversion kit but I don't know of anyone that has experience with them.
 
Just FYI, match grade .22 conversions for 1911-style pistols have been made by Kart, Day, Marvel, and Peters Stahl. They're all $300+ and shoot as well as "real" .22 pistols.

I know you aren't going to enter any bullseye matches but I thought I'd throw that info out for the lurkers. :)
 
Thanks guys.
A local has one on one of his 1911s and will let me play with it.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC:
Yup, capito...(I think.)

I keep forgetting that I live in an enlightened (maybe I should say 'yet undarkened') State, where buying a new gun takes only a few minutes, assuming NICS isn't down.

In your situation, a conv. unit makes sense.

I'm not sure that putting one on a WWII GI gun will turn your old slabside into a feather-merchant target gun...I have this mental image of a Gunnery Sergeant in a tutu, looking kinda red and embarassed... ;) --slabsides
 
I've used several of the original Colt conversion units (steel slide, etc.)and currently have, and use, three. No experience with the Ciener or others.

My only addition to the earlier posts is that I've had no difficulty with the lead "welding" of the floating (Williams) chamber to the barrel. Although I confess I've not gone beyound roughly 1,000 rounds without cleaning. An FYI about this - do not grease, or otherwise petroluem lube, the floating chamber after cleaning. A bit of graphite is fine - but if you use anything much heavier it is my experience that that may cause the floating chamber to freeze. A very, very light coating of 3N1 Machine oil seems to be OK if you expect a long interval between uses.

As far as accuracy - "Your milage may vary." As others have said, you won't enter bulls-eye matches with them - but I've taken a lot of squirrel and grouse with conversion units with adjustible sights. But, as with all .22s, they have their brand and lot preferences.

The advantage (other than less $/per practice session) is that with every round you smooth the trigger on your service weapon. And you have a really nice fun gun.


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Jim Fox
 
Jim,

What brand & type of ammo are you using in your Ace Conversion? I've tried wax coated bullets without success and found that those Fed. Copper Coated (550 to a box) from Wally World works best, but still requires cleaning to prevent the "weld" problem. Thanks in advance.

Gary
 
I tried the Jarvis/Centaur unit once, but it didn't impress me. The slide profile is so low that it takes away the commonality of training...the sights are far below where you expect to see them. My friend's unit was also picky about ammo, magazines, and did not reliably lock back after the last shot. In addition, it didn't fit on my Sptingfield's frame when we tried to swap the unit around out of curiousity.
 
I have a Colt floating chamber Conversion Unit (it is not called the "Ace") and it has worked well. The mechanism is identical to the Service Model Ace. The floating chamber gives more recoil feel than the original Ace which does not have a floating chamber.

The conversion unit is easy to swap, and should work well with normal hi velocity ammo. It may not always work with standard velocity or some types of ammo. The slide locks back in the normal manner on an empty magazine.

With all respect to various .22 pistols, the conversion unit gives the exact feel of the .45 frame, not something close.

Jim
 
4V50 Gary

I've used mostly Federal High Power (copper coat)and sometimes Champion (uncoated lead). I use these mostly because they are the brands that go on sale at Penny's or K-mart or wherever.

The most accurate unit I have prefers CCI standard velocity - and gets that when it is used for hunting. I've never noticed any special problem with any of it. Some of the K-Mart sale specials are dirtier than others. I just bought a case of Thunderbolt (Remington), but haven't tried that in any of the conversion units.

I usually clean after a couple of hundred rounds or less (most .22 ammo is naturally dirty), but have gone 1,000 or more. Part of my early learning curve included nicely oiling the floating chamber. I don't do that any more - I wipe it as dry as possible after cleaning and then, if I add anything, a little powdered graphite (or Lock Ease, which I let dry before re-assembly, if I don't have the dry graphite).

I prefer the copper coated ammo because the wax build up for the other is real annoying to get out of all the fine crevices around the extracter and bolt face - but even so none have ever frozen the floating chamber.

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Jim Fox
 
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