I was wondering if anyone had insight into the minimum seating depth for the following? I have identified my REM 700 22-250 lands with form fired brass seating a 40Gr Hornady V-MAX. This short bullet wouldn’t be seated very deep in the neck if I were too close to the lands. Just curious how far anyone has pushed the envelope with seating depth of this combination.
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22-250 bullet seating depth question
- Thread starter Benchguy
- Start date
I think you have hit the key issue with light, short bullets.
If you seat them too close to the lands in a slightly deep chamber, you may be risking having too little bullet body in the neck to maintain consistent neck tension. That will erase any hope of maintaining accuracy.
The 40 gr V-Max has a boat tail, so that reduces the bullet body available to fit in the neck even further than a flat base bullet.
For a .22-250,Hornady recommends a COAL of 2.350 for most of their bullets less than 60 gr.
Interestingly, for a .223, Hornady recommends a C.O.A.L of 2.200 for the 40 gr V-Max, but 2.230 for their 52 gr A-Max, and 2.250 for their 55 gr V-Max.
That should give you a clue.
It doesn't seem logical that all the COALs would be equal for a .22-250 when they are variable with the .223s with the same bullets between 40 and 55 grains.
I have two .223 target rifles with well-used chambers. 52, 53 and 55 grain bullets all fall out of the neck before they reach the lands. Needless to say, I don't seat them any further than maintaining consistent neck tension allows.
I haven't had any loss of accuracy that I could measure as the chamber has eroded over thousands of rounds.
If you seat them too close to the lands in a slightly deep chamber, you may be risking having too little bullet body in the neck to maintain consistent neck tension. That will erase any hope of maintaining accuracy.
The 40 gr V-Max has a boat tail, so that reduces the bullet body available to fit in the neck even further than a flat base bullet.
For a .22-250,Hornady recommends a COAL of 2.350 for most of their bullets less than 60 gr.
Interestingly, for a .223, Hornady recommends a C.O.A.L of 2.200 for the 40 gr V-Max, but 2.230 for their 52 gr A-Max, and 2.250 for their 55 gr V-Max.
That should give you a clue.
It doesn't seem logical that all the COALs would be equal for a .22-250 when they are variable with the .223s with the same bullets between 40 and 55 grains.
I have two .223 target rifles with well-used chambers. 52, 53 and 55 grain bullets all fall out of the neck before they reach the lands. Needless to say, I don't seat them any further than maintaining consistent neck tension allows.
I haven't had any loss of accuracy that I could measure as the chamber has eroded over thousands of rounds.
May a practical limit will give you some help.
If you want to figure out the furthest out you should set the COAL,
measure the bullet base to ogive and subtract the length of the boat tail.
That will give you the bullet body length that touches the bullet neck (and the rifling).
Some recommend seating no less than the caliber width (0.224) in the neck, but I have found that you can probably get away with about half that (0.112 inches).
If you need to really seat those 40 V-Max bullets out as far as you can and still maintain neck tension, that should give you a pretty good maximum COAL point.
If you want to figure out the furthest out you should set the COAL,
measure the bullet base to ogive and subtract the length of the boat tail.
That will give you the bullet body length that touches the bullet neck (and the rifling).
Some recommend seating no less than the caliber width (0.224) in the neck, but I have found that you can probably get away with about half that (0.112 inches).
If you need to really seat those 40 V-Max bullets out as far as you can and still maintain neck tension, that should give you a pretty good maximum COAL point.
My book says max loaded length is 2.350".
With "ordinary" bullets that should keep you clear of the lands and work through the magazine and action. Less that that is even better.
Standard old timers rull of thumb for bullet seating depth was one full caliber, if you could get it, and at least half a caliber of full diameter bearing surface in the case neck.
.22" for a .22 caliber, no less than .1" and .1" might not give you reasonably durable ammo. If a slight bump on the bullet tips it, or pops it loose, you need to seat it deeper. For short bullets, like 40gr forget "chasing the lands" and seat them to a decent stable depth.
What you need to look at here is how much of each bullet is in the case neck. Measure the bullets (boatails don't count) from tip to the bottom of the bullet where it can contact the neck. Subtract the case length from the overall loaded length and that tells you how much bullet is exposed. Compare that against the length of the bullet and that tells you how much is inside the case.
Then look at the "recommended" COLs, and the different lengths for the different weights of bullets. See how much of each bullet is in the case neck. The difference in "recommended" lengths could just be the difference in the length what sticks out when seated to the same depth.
With "ordinary" bullets that should keep you clear of the lands and work through the magazine and action. Less that that is even better.
Standard old timers rull of thumb for bullet seating depth was one full caliber, if you could get it, and at least half a caliber of full diameter bearing surface in the case neck.
.22" for a .22 caliber, no less than .1" and .1" might not give you reasonably durable ammo. If a slight bump on the bullet tips it, or pops it loose, you need to seat it deeper. For short bullets, like 40gr forget "chasing the lands" and seat them to a decent stable depth.
For a .22-250,Hornady recommends a COAL of 2.350 for most of their bullets less than 60 gr.
Interestingly, for a .223, Hornady recommends a C.O.A.L of 2.200 for the 40 gr V-Max, but 2.230 for their 52 gr A-Max, and 2.250 for their 55 gr V-Max.
What you need to look at here is how much of each bullet is in the case neck. Measure the bullets (boatails don't count) from tip to the bottom of the bullet where it can contact the neck. Subtract the case length from the overall loaded length and that tells you how much bullet is exposed. Compare that against the length of the bullet and that tells you how much is inside the case.
Then look at the "recommended" COLs, and the different lengths for the different weights of bullets. See how much of each bullet is in the case neck. The difference in "recommended" lengths could just be the difference in the length what sticks out when seated to the same depth.
So my understanding, when seating a bullet, you generally want a full bullets diameter seated into the neck so that the neck can properly hold the bullet.
Once you have a diameters worth of bullet seated, you can continue to seat until you have use up the bearing surface of the bullet and you start getting a gap between the case mouth and the bullets ogive.
Once you have a diameters worth of bullet seated, you can continue to seat until you have use up the bearing surface of the bullet and you start getting a gap between the case mouth and the bullets ogive.
Alright, thanks guys! I’ll do some measurements and figure this out. It’s grouping decent but figured I’d see if I could squeeze it down a little. Best I can get right now is .67, @ 100m, and that may be all I can get. Barrel should be far from burned out and it’s pretty's clean.
Appreciate the feedback!
Appreciate the feedback!
There are different schools of thought. I stay with the one I came up with for myself.
First I need to find out experimentally the coal corresponding to zero bullet jump for that particular bullet and rifle. Either that or the cartridge's max COAL becomes the upper bound, unless I plan to shoot single load. In practice this upper bound may have to be further reduced based on a few considerations. Primarily I need to seat the bullet deep enough so that the brass neck have enough time to expand to seal the gas.
Second I need to figure out the min coal at which the brass neck is still on the bearing surface of the bullet. That becomes the lower bound of my COAL. I may go slight shorter for single load.
Between upper and lower bounds, coal is to be varied to tune group size. I don't chase lands.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
First I need to find out experimentally the coal corresponding to zero bullet jump for that particular bullet and rifle. Either that or the cartridge's max COAL becomes the upper bound, unless I plan to shoot single load. In practice this upper bound may have to be further reduced based on a few considerations. Primarily I need to seat the bullet deep enough so that the brass neck have enough time to expand to seal the gas.
Second I need to figure out the min coal at which the brass neck is still on the bearing surface of the bullet. That becomes the lower bound of my COAL. I may go slight shorter for single load.
Between upper and lower bounds, coal is to be varied to tune group size. I don't chase lands.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Best I can get right now is .67, @ 100m,
Sometimes, the factor limiting things the most is the shooter themselves.
Sometimes, its the optics, or the shooting set up, sometimes its the rifle and ammo and sometimes its all these things combined.
The .22-250 generally does its best with 55gr or 50, 52, 53gr bullets. 40s do fairly well, but its an individual thing for each and every rifle, load, and shooter combination.
I have a Win 70 Varmint, bought in the early 80s. With moderate quality 6x18 variable and the stock factory trigger, adjusted to what I like.
With my handloads I get 1 inch to 3/4 inch groups with 55gr SPs. Using 52/3 gr match bullets (sierra/hornady) I get 3/4 inch down to 1/2 inch when I'm having a good day.
This means that the bullets will strike somewhere within a half inch of the point of aim, and possibly within 1/4 inch and that's good enough to hit even small varmits out to 300, IF I do my part right.
Also, I have shot some of the 63gr Sierra semi spitzers (the "deer" bullet of its era). 1 1/2" to 2" groups were the best I could get. Accurate enough form medium size game, not quite good enough for small varmints.
That's MY rifle, yours will almost certainly be a bit different, and the next guys different from either of ours, as well.
Visiting the reloading bench I discovered there is only .208 of surface on these 40Gr V-MAX! LOL! So I e seated 4 sets of 5 using what I hope is common sense and will wait for a day I can trust the weather and it’s not scorching hot!
I try to be consistent in my shooting off the bench, where I do my testing. I suppose I’m not doing everything correctly every shot but work on the fundamentals of proper technique. It has a new TriggerTech Primary and a Vortex 6-24x50 Diamondback. Not best of the best but capable components. I’ve had some 3 and 4 shot groups I’d love to add the shot or two to but fait throws a wrench in most of the time. I’d call myself a beginner as I’ve only reloaded may 400 rounds between 3 rifles, but, I’m getting more consistent numbers every day I set down. One of these days I’ll get it right.
I try to be consistent in my shooting off the bench, where I do my testing. I suppose I’m not doing everything correctly every shot but work on the fundamentals of proper technique. It has a new TriggerTech Primary and a Vortex 6-24x50 Diamondback. Not best of the best but capable components. I’ve had some 3 and 4 shot groups I’d love to add the shot or two to but fait throws a wrench in most of the time. I’d call myself a beginner as I’ve only reloaded may 400 rounds between 3 rifles, but, I’m getting more consistent numbers every day I set down. One of these days I’ll get it right.
Yes, there are bullets with less than a caliber of bearing surface.
One thing you can do is drop a bullet into your chamber and hold it against the lands with a segment of cleaning rod or dowel. Then, slide a 3/16" dowel with a square end in from the muzzle until it just touches the nose of the bullet (brass is best, but wood works if you don't drop it or push it hard enough to indent the end). Mark it flush with the muzzle. Then, withdraw your bullet support, push the bullet out with the dowel, and remove it. Then close your bolt and push the dowel in until it stops on the bolt fast (be sure the ejector doesn't interfere by removing it or pushing down hard with the dowel). With the dowel in that position, mark it again. Withdraw it from the barrel. The distance between the two marks you made on the dowel is the maximum COL you could have with this bullet if the neck were long enough to get you there.
Next, take one of your resized cases. Set the bullet on the mouth of your case. Measure from the head of the case to the tip of the sitting bullet. If this distance is shorter than the distance between your two marks, you cannot load to jam the lands. If it is longer than the distance between your two marks, you can jam the lands. If you want to jam the lands but the right COL only seats the bullet a tiny distance into the case (too little for good case grip), you can still jam the lands if you load singly, but magazine feed will be out.
One thing you can do is drop a bullet into your chamber and hold it against the lands with a segment of cleaning rod or dowel. Then, slide a 3/16" dowel with a square end in from the muzzle until it just touches the nose of the bullet (brass is best, but wood works if you don't drop it or push it hard enough to indent the end). Mark it flush with the muzzle. Then, withdraw your bullet support, push the bullet out with the dowel, and remove it. Then close your bolt and push the dowel in until it stops on the bolt fast (be sure the ejector doesn't interfere by removing it or pushing down hard with the dowel). With the dowel in that position, mark it again. Withdraw it from the barrel. The distance between the two marks you made on the dowel is the maximum COL you could have with this bullet if the neck were long enough to get you there.
Next, take one of your resized cases. Set the bullet on the mouth of your case. Measure from the head of the case to the tip of the sitting bullet. If this distance is shorter than the distance between your two marks, you cannot load to jam the lands. If it is longer than the distance between your two marks, you can jam the lands. If you want to jam the lands but the right COL only seats the bullet a tiny distance into the case (too little for good case grip), you can still jam the lands if you load singly, but magazine feed will be out.
Jim Watson
New member
Best I can get right now is .67, @ 100m,
That is about my holding limit with the best of barrel and ammo.
I would quit "developing" and shoot whatever it is you meant to use the rifle for.
I was able to get enough information from my comparator to see jamming the lands was more risk than I want to take. Don’t have the numbers handy, but with the load being where it is I think this might be the tail end of the 40 V-MAX. It’s going to be a varmint load and should be effective at somewhere around 3850fps. This is in order with what Jim says in his reply. I had this gun shooting great on Sierra 52gr BTHP and 4064. It was my first loads ever (near 40yrs ago) and didn’t get the shoulders set back far enough on several rounds and they would have to be jammed into the chamber. I pulled the bullets a few months ago and started testing Varget. Those loads were just off the lands but in my youth I lost the data.Yes, there are bullets with less than a caliber of bearing surface.
One thing you can do is drop a bullet into your chamber and hold it against the lands with a segment of cleaning rod or dowel. Then, slide a 3/16" dowel with a square end in from the muzzle until it just touches the nose of the bullet (brass is best, but wood works if you don't drop it or push it hard enough to indent the end). Mark it flush with the muzzle. Then, withdraw your bullet support, push the bullet out with the dowel, and remove it. Then close your bolt and push the dowel in until it stops on the bolt fast (be sure the ejector doesn't interfere by removing it or pushing down hard with the dowel). With the dowel in that position, mark it again. Withdraw it from the barrel. The distance between the two marks you made on the dowel is the maximum COL you could have with this bullet if the neck were long enough to get you there.
Next, take one of your resized cases. Set the bullet on the mouth of your case. Measure from the head of the case to the tip of the sitting bullet. If this distance is shorter than the distance between your two marks, you cannot load to jam the lands. If it is longer than the distance between your two marks, you can jam the lands. If you want to jam the lands but the right COL only seats the bullet a tiny distance into the case (too little for good case grip), you can still jam the lands if you load singly, but magazine feed will be out.
I really appreciate all the feedback!
Using 52/3 gr match bullets (sierra/hornady) I get 3/4 inch down to 1/2 inch when I'm having a good day.
Just a little more information about my loads, for your consideration...
The bullets are seated without any consideration of where they are in relationship to the lands. Brass is full length resized, checked for length and trimmed if needed. Primer pockets are cleaned, but no other brass prep other than tumble cleaning is done.
Individual powder charges are weights and trickled for uniformity, when using IMR (stick) powders. When using ball powder, not so much. Checks every 5th or 10th round show sufficient uniformity for me.
Overall loaded length was set by snugging the seating stem on the nose of a Rem 55gr SP factory load. This puts it just a couple thousands below listed book max length.
I don't worry about how far off the lands, I am, nor do I "tinker" with the sizing die to just "bump" the shoulder. FL size, die turned down tight against the shell holder works just fine, for me.
Since I am getting 3/4" or sometimes 1/2" groups, without all the extra work real benchrest shooters do (and which some claim are needed), I don't bother with doing that stuff.
I think the biggest factor in the accuracy I can get is me. And I'm about as good as I'm ever going to get, and in fact, heading down from my best peak years now. Accuracy I can't USE is not important to me, and I don't do extra work to get what I can't use.
Also, the only work ever done to the rifle was I adjusted the factory trigger pull to what I wanted (approx 3lbs) about 40 years ago. Its been constant ever since.
You do you, I'll do me, and as long as we both hit what we aim at, its all good.
bamaranger
New member
booger
That tiny 40 gr bullet is a booger. I eventually loaded a couple of hundred in .223 but had to really work at COAL. It was such a pickle that when my existing loaded ammo is shot up, I will not be loading that tiny pill again.
The rifle I was working with is an Interarms Mark X. I really wanted to shoot 52 gr match BTHP, that is the bullet I use in 22-250 as well. But for what ever reason, the little Mini-Mauser is velocity challenged and reasonable loads would not break 3000fps, which I felt should be entirely possible. The tiny 40 gr pill breaks 3000 fps easily, but I have way less than full caliber bearing surface, more like half caliber.... .10. I treat the ammo like raw eggs.
That tiny 40 gr bullet is a booger. I eventually loaded a couple of hundred in .223 but had to really work at COAL. It was such a pickle that when my existing loaded ammo is shot up, I will not be loading that tiny pill again.
The rifle I was working with is an Interarms Mark X. I really wanted to shoot 52 gr match BTHP, that is the bullet I use in 22-250 as well. But for what ever reason, the little Mini-Mauser is velocity challenged and reasonable loads would not break 3000fps, which I felt should be entirely possible. The tiny 40 gr pill breaks 3000 fps easily, but I have way less than full caliber bearing surface, more like half caliber.... .10. I treat the ammo like raw eggs.
It’s a Remington 700 ADL, with a 26” barrel, bolt action hunting rifle. I purchased it in 1980.caliber and barrel length of your Mini Mauser is?????
Yeah. The lowest velocity starting load Hodgdon shows for a 40-grain bullet is over 3500 fps from a 24" barrel. 26" is Benchguy's barrel length. I don't know what Bamaranger's is, but I assume 20" as that's what I've seen on the mini-Mausers previously, but that should only cost him 200 fps or so at most. He did say it is in 22-250, so assuming it isn't an SBR or that he meant to say 223, I'm going to suggest he's got a chrono reading issue. If it's an optical chronograph too close to the rifle (put it 15 feet out, as SAAMI does), bypass gas or muzzle blast can trigger the start screen ahead of bullet arrival if the Chrono is too close, resulting in a slow reading. Check the bullet sensitivity settings for the Magnetospeed types. With the LabRadar, make sure nobody shooting nearby triggered it a moment before your bullet flew.
Posting a follow up to my initial post.
Chose tonight to fire 5 rounds of what I loaded with seating depth test. 76deg, 54%RH zero wind. 4 rounds went into a .22 spread and the 4th shot stretched it out to .41. That’s the best group I’ve ever shot and the best this gun has ever shot. Barrel warmed up after a couple foulers, sighters and scope adjustments. Stopped at 10 rounds total.
Chose tonight to fire 5 rounds of what I loaded with seating depth test. 76deg, 54%RH zero wind. 4 rounds went into a .22 spread and the 4th shot stretched it out to .41. That’s the best group I’ve ever shot and the best this gun has ever shot. Barrel warmed up after a couple foulers, sighters and scope adjustments. Stopped at 10 rounds total.