22-250 & 308 Opinions...

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Spartan0536

Inactive
Hello everyone,

I generally limit myself to 1 firearm purchase a year but last year I did not purchase one so its time to make up for that loss! :) That being said I currently have a Savage 93FV in .22WMR, I love .22WMR except for the current MASSIVE ammo shortage due to hoarding. Since my purchase of my 93FV 4 years ago I have been sold on Savage for bolt action rifles, that Accutrigger is really something awesome coming from the factory. My new requirements are....

1. 22-250 caliber, 22 inch Heavy Barrel Minimum, 1/10 - 1/12 ROT (I plan to shoot about 200-400 yards with 50-55 grain BT bullets), Accutrigger, Accustock. This led me to the Savage Model 12 FCV, does anyone here have any experience with the 12 FCV or a comparable rifle with a 1/12 twist using 50-55 grain bullets?

2. .308 Win caliber, 24 inch heavy barrel (sporter or match) prefer a 26 inch, muzzle break, accutrigger, accustock, and a 1/10 ROT for heavy rounds. I came up with the Model 10 FCP-K but sadly that model was DISCONTINUED last November by Savage :( so after calling Savage I found the Model 11/111 LRH in .308, does anyone have any experience(s) with this rifle or one like it with a 1/10 twist?

Any and all help here is greatly appreciated, I do work for a retailer and I get a very nice MFGR discount so this makes the double purchase very affordable to me, just need to make sure I am getting what I am looking for here.
 
My brother has a Savage Long Range Hunter, his 5 shot group at 100 yards is about a 45cal hole.
 
I have both 308 and 223. Both are the same Model and both will make one hole very easy at 100 plus yards. Both are Model FVSS. We play tic tac toe at 100 yards with 9MM cases glued to a chunk of wood.
 
The last Savage bolt gun I had personal experience with was a 110CL in .30-06, some 30-odd years ago, so no help for you there.

However, I do have to ask, why choose a 22 inch barrel for a .22-250? going this route is handicapping the .22-250s best asset, its speed. Now, everything is a trade off, and bench shooters will tell you how a shorter barrel is stiffer, leading to better accuracy, BUT is it worth it, for what you will be doing?

The .22-250 wasn't designed to win matches, it was named "Varminter" by its creator, and survived and prospered as a wildcat round for DECADES, even if the face of factory rounds like the .220 swift. It did so well, Remington finally adopted it as a factory round.

The .22-250 is very good at what it was meant to do, bust varmints, even small ones at longish (300yds) ranges. Most of them will shoot small groups from the bench, too. Just not good enough to win matches against today's competition cartridges.

I just can't see any point to a .22-250 with less than a 24" barrel, and would go 26" if possible. Its not like you have to climb in and out of Humvees with it.

Longer barrel .22-250s can run the 50-55gr bullets up to 3800fps range without really straining hard, and if really pushed can sometimes crack 4000, but this wears them out fast. Most shoot their best around 3600fps + and the longer tubes let you get in that range without having to get really hot.

Just something to consider...
 
44AMP has given you good advise concerning the 22-250. I Have a Sako Stainless Varmint in 22-250 and shoot the Hornady 55gr V-Max and it's very accurate.:)
 
I have some data on a 12 LPV in .22-250 with the laminated stock a 26 inch 1:12 twist bull barrel with 52 grain Berger # 22408 bullets at 100 yards.

For 104 groups measured with Reloader 15 and N140 powders:
Overall average of all groups is 0.402 for 37 separate loads.
Reloader 15 loads averaged 0.407 and N140 loads averaged 0.398.
Best load has 0.202 average with N140 and 2.32 with Reloader 15.
Top 10 loads average 0.303. (5 with N140 and 5 with Reloader 15)
Top 25 loads average 0.360. (12 with N140 and 13 with Reloader 15)

The 12 LPV in .308 is pretty new and took a bit of time to get the hand loads right. Turns out the chamber is pretty tight and requires full sizing to be set back a bit more than normal and the overall length to be kept slightly shorter than manual recommendations.
Once that was figured out, 150 grain SMK groups with N140 powder averaged 0.487 when the OAL was set at 2.760. Best load average was 0.360. Only 21 groups measured so far with the new settings.
Factory Norma Match with SMK 150 gr bullets averaged 0.472.
 
I wouldn't be afraid to buy any Savage rifle, they usually are very good shooters. However, I'd scrap the .22-250 in favor of the same model in .223 Rem. I don't know why manufacturers won't catch up with the times and start making .224 caliber rifles with a faster twist.

The 1:9 twist the Savage offers for the .223 will make it a far more versatile rifle than the 1:12 in the .22-250. You'll have a wider array of bullet to choose from that you can shoot and the trajectories of the .223 will more closely mimic that of the .308 you're looking at as well. If you can find a 10 twist .22-250 then I'd say go for that one as it'll shoot everything a 9 twist .223 will. If offered a 12 or slower twist in the .22-250 or a 9 twist in .223, I'll choose the .223 every time.

A 1:8 twist Tikka or Ruger American/Predator would be my first choice overall, but they aren't offered in varmint contours. The ability to use a 75 grain bullet in these twists are a real game changer. Other than trajectory it'll give nothing up to a .22-250 shooting a 55 grain bullet and outperforms a 50 grain at 500+ yards.

Plus the .223 will give you longer barrel life vs. .22-250, and more shots befor barrel heat builds up. It only gives up about 400-500 fps to the .22-250 usually out of a 4" shorter barrel, equal length barrels and you can cut those figures in half. It's cheaper to shoot than a .22-250 usually and has a far wider variety of ammunition available for it.
 
It only gives up about 400-500 fps to the .22-250
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OK, this did make me smile. Considering the amount of discussion (aka arguments) over cartridges that "only" have 100-200fps difference (including, but not limited to .308 vs. .30-06), I don't think the much larger difference between the .223 and the .22-250 puts them in the same class.

The .223 does great work with the fast twists and heavy bullets, but its not a .22-250, and if you use the same tricks on a .22-250 it begins its performance well above anything the .223 can do, walks away from that point easily.
 
22-250 is an outstanding cartridge, especially for varmints. My brother and I are about as a serious as you can get p-dog shooters and I use a Savage 12 22-250 from 20-500 yards and I never feel under gunned, and the acrobatics are never disappointing with VMAX bullets. I've used 220 swift, 243 and 300 WSM which are just as good or better than the 22-250 but I always come back to my 22-250.

A couple years ago my Dad brought his 223 p-dogging with us and it just didn't cut the mustard compared to the 22-250. He had way more "draggers" and pathetic flips to boot. The extra velocity of the 22-250 is a huge advantage in a breezy, hilly North Dakota p-dog town and anywhere for that matter.

If you want some truly spectacular "red mist" kills on p-dogs or coyotes try the 110 VMAX out of a 300 WSM:D



Savage 12 BVSS 22-250, 5 shots, 100 yards, 50 VMAX 3860 fps


Savage 10 308 Win, 3 shots, 100 yards, 168 Speer HPBT 2680 fps


Savage 16 300 WSM, 26" Shilen 1-14 twist barrel, 3 shots, 100 yards, 110 VMAX 3780 fps
 
44 AMP said:
OK, this did make me smile. Considering the amount of discussion (aka arguments) over cartridges that "only" have 100-200fps difference (including, but not limited to .308 vs. .30-06), I don't think the much larger difference between the .223 and the .22-250 puts them in the same class.

The .223 does great work with the fast twists and heavy bullets, but its not a .22-250, and if you use the same tricks on a .22-250 it begins its performance well above anything the .223 can do, walks away from that point easily.
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You totally miss read my point. No, the .223 will never match the .22-250 in speed. Bullets are the most important part of an equation for me, all I need is enough speed to make the bullet work properly at the max range I'm going to need it to work. .223 does this in spades, too often people get wrapped around the axle over FPS thinking it's better than BC, and to me BC is more important than FPS.

Problem is the OP is looking at factory rifles, in a factory rifle the .22-250 or .220 Swift would be my last choices in a .224 caliber rifle. Just because it lacks the capabilities of using really good bullets. Now if most .22-250's were offered in a 10 or faster twist that would be a game changer. However, to get a fast twist in most .22-250 rifles requires a custom tube.
 
"...with a 1/10 twist..." That'd be most .308 rifles. Browning for some daft reason uses 1 in 11. 1 in 10 was the original military twist. Doesn't make a lot of difference though.
Forget the muzzle brake. Only makes shooting very loud.
Suspect you're pushing a 55 grain bullet at 400 to 500 yards. Energy at 500 is well under 500 ft/lbs. and it'll drop close to 3 feet with a 200 yard zero.
 
I am with Taylorce1 on this one. I can get a 223 to work wonders for my needs.
I couldn't believe how good it was on deer till I took a big doe broadside shot with a Barnes HST bullet. :eek:
From deer to ground hogs. My 223 is primarily a coyote rig. My primary deer bear rig is a 308 and 270.
 
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Just because it lacks the capabilities of using really good bullets.
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My .22-250 does excellent work with "really good bullets" 52, 53, & 55gr. But what is a really good bullet for your applications apparently isn't the same as mine. Somewhere I've got around half a box of those really long heavy .224 bullets (with red plastic tips), 70gr IIRC. They are useless to me (got them with a bunch of other stuff).

I think the main reason you don't see factory .22-250s with fast twists (yet) is mostly a combination of inertia (lag) from the factories, and also the traditional varmint round nature and application of the .22-250. I think the bulk of the .22-250 buying public isn't looking for the long range match performance that led to the fast twists and heavy .223 bullets in AR rifles. They are looking more for the flat shooting fast varmint bullets at ranges of 400yds and less.

That's where the .22-250 shines brightest, and until the factories start hearing large numbers of people asking for fast twist barrels, over the regular standard twist rates, you won't see fast twist barrels as a common factory option. When they do, you will.

If a .223 gives you the performance you want, with the bullet you want, then use it, you don't need a .22-250.
 
There's not much wrong with a .22-250 Rem, except the people who want it to shoot heavier bullets at faster velocities. Blowing out the shoulder, lengthening the case, and expanding the neck to 6mm would make a great varmint/deer cartridge out of it.

OMG, they've done it!! It's called the .243 Winchester!!!! Dag nabbit! That cartridge shoots 60 grain bullets to high enough vel/pressure to burn out a barrel in short order. It also is quite comfortable with bullets from 75 grains to 100 grains with great ballistics, making it a great varmint-to-deer cartridge.

But, getting back to the .22-250 Rem; I say love it, or leave it...OR, ream the barrel and make into a .22-250 AO and get less case stretching. Personally, I loved the .22-250 just as it came. I then rebarreled my rifle to .243 Win. Then, bought a .223 Rem for range fun and under 300 yard varmint shooting. The best of BOTH worlds!!

'Ya make your choices and pay 'ya money! Good luck with your choices!
 
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