200 Yd. Target Shooting?
- Thread starter rikkit
- Start date
Doable. .357mag, .41mag and .44mag seem pretty good at it in the right hands. The longer the barrel-the longer the sight radius and one needs all the help they can get.
Kneeling or sitting helps a lot too.
Definately seperates the casual shooters from the serious ones at that range.
Unless you are tryin to knock a steel ram down at that range, don't need real heavy loads. Just consistant loads and very consistant shooting.
I have been eying a Model 29 Silhouette with 10 5/8" barrel for long playing. .44 specials will do it and can always use .44 Mag for breakin things.
Sam
Kneeling or sitting helps a lot too.
Definately seperates the casual shooters from the serious ones at that range.
Unless you are tryin to knock a steel ram down at that range, don't need real heavy loads. Just consistant loads and very consistant shooting.
I have been eying a Model 29 Silhouette with 10 5/8" barrel for long playing. .44 specials will do it and can always use .44 Mag for breakin things.
Sam
There's a group in Colorado. They call themselves the 1/4 mile club, or something similar. They target shoot with pistols at 500 yards, and achieve sub 4" groups off the bench. They use Contenders with wildcat loads. I remember one load being bottleneck and .30 cal. Shooting Times Magazine had an article on them a few years back. I'll see if I can find it.
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
Many years past, Elmer Keith wrote about - - -
- - -long range pistol shooting in his fine book, Sixguns. He made one point that stuck with me all this time. Don't have my copy to give an exact quote, but it went something like - - -
It shouldn't be any surprise that a good shooter can make good hits with a revolver at two or three hundred yards. If you look at the length of the barrel and the bore size, it is much the same relationship of tube length and size in an artilleryman's howitzer. The cannoneer knows his load and has the mathematics to find the range and estimate the elevation. After that, it is simply a matter of a solid mount for the gun. If any good, he can hit a building at several miles distance.
It may take us a little time to figure the holdover, or to adjust the sights, but it can be done with with a handgun at 200 yards just like with a 105 mm at a couple of miles--even without directly seeing the target.
Best,
Johnny
- - -long range pistol shooting in his fine book, Sixguns. He made one point that stuck with me all this time. Don't have my copy to give an exact quote, but it went something like - - -
It shouldn't be any surprise that a good shooter can make good hits with a revolver at two or three hundred yards. If you look at the length of the barrel and the bore size, it is much the same relationship of tube length and size in an artilleryman's howitzer. The cannoneer knows his load and has the mathematics to find the range and estimate the elevation. After that, it is simply a matter of a solid mount for the gun. If any good, he can hit a building at several miles distance.
It may take us a little time to figure the holdover, or to adjust the sights, but it can be done with with a handgun at 200 yards just like with a 105 mm at a couple of miles--even without directly seeing the target.
Best,
Johnny
Bods Oddkin
New member
Ed McGivern once said that he could shoot revolvers at 200 yards as accurately as a good marksman with a rifle. That seems to be documented.
Don Mallard
New member
200 yds?
After I retired from my State's DPS I became interested in civilian aspects of handgunning-the WWW included.
I can readily spot a shooter who lies about most any gun related topic.
I am also facinated in the questioning of using a good revolver for 200 yd shots.
My 6" N frame 357 will print 2" at 100 yds and with the only ammo I have ever used and that is the original full power SWC load.
I have some Super-X ammo from the 40's and I duplicate it as well.
It is somewhat of a strange statement for me to read,with regularity, of handgunners saying......"oh I finally got a day off and I went to the range(a public one) and shot nearly 200 rounds"!
It is then that I begin to understand that 99% of todays handgunners just haven't been in the position to shoot full time and be paid to do so.
I suggest those of you who are in that 'current situation' to buy some mountain land-as I have done-and retire there so you can shoot all your heart desires.
After you have practiced for a few months,full time, you will be able to shoot 100 yds 'free standing' and much further than that with a good rest.
I suggest you use a 27 or 28 with a 6" barrel.
You won't live long enough to wear one out and they are splendid right out of the box--except for a smooth action job.
I have a SBH which was made in 1958.
Those first ones were designed -sights wise-to shoot 180 grn bullets.
Most of them just won't shoot to point of aim with 240 or 300 grn fodder. The rear sights will bottom out before the groups correct themselves.
Those old guns are really perfect-for a straight caliber wheelgun- to be used for 3-500 yd shots with open sights. Matter of fact-stiff charges of 2400 and a 240 grn SWC or jacketed does not level out until the 100 yd mark and then there is plenty of adjustment for the longer shots.
I think there is no better time than now for handgunners to return to basics of precision shooting. Leave the spray methods to punk homeboys and learn to use the heavy frame magnums for their intented purpose and that was power, accuracy and longevity.
Don Mallard
After I retired from my State's DPS I became interested in civilian aspects of handgunning-the WWW included.
I can readily spot a shooter who lies about most any gun related topic.
I am also facinated in the questioning of using a good revolver for 200 yd shots.
My 6" N frame 357 will print 2" at 100 yds and with the only ammo I have ever used and that is the original full power SWC load.
I have some Super-X ammo from the 40's and I duplicate it as well.
It is somewhat of a strange statement for me to read,with regularity, of handgunners saying......"oh I finally got a day off and I went to the range(a public one) and shot nearly 200 rounds"!
It is then that I begin to understand that 99% of todays handgunners just haven't been in the position to shoot full time and be paid to do so.
I suggest those of you who are in that 'current situation' to buy some mountain land-as I have done-and retire there so you can shoot all your heart desires.
After you have practiced for a few months,full time, you will be able to shoot 100 yds 'free standing' and much further than that with a good rest.
I suggest you use a 27 or 28 with a 6" barrel.
You won't live long enough to wear one out and they are splendid right out of the box--except for a smooth action job.
I have a SBH which was made in 1958.
Those first ones were designed -sights wise-to shoot 180 grn bullets.
Most of them just won't shoot to point of aim with 240 or 300 grn fodder. The rear sights will bottom out before the groups correct themselves.
Those old guns are really perfect-for a straight caliber wheelgun- to be used for 3-500 yd shots with open sights. Matter of fact-stiff charges of 2400 and a 240 grn SWC or jacketed does not level out until the 100 yd mark and then there is plenty of adjustment for the longer shots.
I think there is no better time than now for handgunners to return to basics of precision shooting. Leave the spray methods to punk homeboys and learn to use the heavy frame magnums for their intented purpose and that was power, accuracy and longevity.
Don Mallard
Pigshooter
New member
In sillhouette we shoot out to 200 meters (1/8 mile). You have to be about 4MOA accurate and have a load that will expend some knockdown; good hunting loads are fine. 357 police loads are a little on the weak side.
Check out IHMSA.org and get involved. Your first shoot is free!
This year the OKC club is extending competition out to 500 meters
Granted, most of the TC guys spank me, but occasionally I get the better of them. I use an 8" Taurus 454. I have also used an AMT longslide in 45 win mag. I'm sorry I ever got rid of it for my 10mm.
Check out IHMSA.org and get involved. Your first shoot is free!
This year the OKC club is extending competition out to 500 meters
Granted, most of the TC guys spank me, but occasionally I get the better of them. I use an 8" Taurus 454. I have also used an AMT longslide in 45 win mag. I'm sorry I ever got rid of it for my 10mm.
Swamp Yankee
New member
Back more years than I care to admit I used to compete in IHMSA matches. Long range with open sights was the rule. I wish I'd done half as much hittin' as I did shootin'. Oh well it was all for fun. I used a .44 Mag. Dan Wesson of course.
This past weekend I watched a couple of older gentlemen banging a steel plate at 200 yards using open sights and .45 LC chambered Blackhawks. They were hitting 5 of 6 on a regular basis.
Boy, I wish my eye sight was better. Anybody found a cure for Middle Age?
Take Care
This past weekend I watched a couple of older gentlemen banging a steel plate at 200 yards using open sights and .45 LC chambered Blackhawks. They were hitting 5 of 6 on a regular basis.
Boy, I wish my eye sight was better. Anybody found a cure for Middle Age?
Take Care
.....deweyDon Mallard
Don, Why do you state to use a six inch? You seem to be very knowledgeable so I am asking because I am in the process of buying a new revolver[DW] but I was going to order a eight inch. Shooting from 50 - 200 yards[non-competitive target] and deer,varmints. Thanks!
Don, Why do you state to use a six inch? You seem to be very knowledgeable so I am asking because I am in the process of buying a new revolver[DW] but I was going to order a eight inch. Shooting from 50 - 200 yards[non-competitive target] and deer,varmints. Thanks!
Don Mallard
New member
taurus
That length has to do with many factors.
It has none to do with my personal preference.I have always regarded the handgun as a working tool. I have a fun revolver and it is a .22 rimfire. I am in a 'formally' unique situation where the N frame 357 is concerned.
My State's DPS was the first Law Enforcement organization to utilize the then new N frame-in 357 magnum.
I realize the FBI used one in the fatal shootout with The Ma Barker Gang-in Florida and The FBI used the 5" md 27 for some duty service but it should be factually noted that they did not utilize that particular gun and no others.
I suggest, at this point, to observe some facts where the 357 is concerned ---- what a 357 magnum is and what it is not.
A 357 magnum is a hard cast, copper coated, SWC bullet which weighs around 158-160 grns.
It was designed to have a muzzle velocity from a non-vented Smith and Wesson revolver. I know for fact that no special gun was used to achieve the velocity of 1550fps. My state has a duplicate Copper Pressure Test device such as the one Winchester used to determine the pressure of that round.
My State has hot temperatures and a major concern-on our part-was that the high pressure round might prove to be unsafe since there was little actual Law enforcement use from which any substantial data could be gathered.
Winchester Western utilized a slow burning pistol power which maintained a close spread of velocity and no 'spike' readings CUP were encountered by them, S&W R&D, The FBI or us.
That powder is of course 2400.
Right out of the gate a major concession was made.
The FBI did not like the 8+" barrel or the sharp target sight.
The next logical platform was the 6".
The original velocity is 'some' over 1400fps from a 6".
The FBI did not favor the 6" so the 5" was developed by S&W to pacify them. The velocity from a 5" is not 1400fps.
The accuracy from a 5or6" did not suffer and in fact the penetration on hard wood test blocks was not signifigantly reduced. The Super-X AP rounds will crack the cast iron engine block of a then passenger car.
At this point I can only submit the facts which I became aware of 30+years ago and that is the velocity reduction from 1550 to even 1400fps was not enough to substantially reduce the energy level to the point that a 'whole different set of values concerning it's properties' were uncovered. For example---a 38 special is rated with a 158grn lead bullet with a standard velocity of 850fps. If that velocity is reduced 150fps then the literal properties become of 38 S&W nature. You should note that in case you do not know that a 38S&W is basically a 38 short and the 357 magnum is a 38 long. A 150 fps loss where the 357 is concerned did not substantially reduce its level of 'acceptance' with the first law enforcement organizations. My State's DPS and many,many more conducted scores of test with the 5and6" barreled 27's. Actual Law Enforcements use of deadly force with the same indicated a vastly improved round where men and hard barriers were concerned when compared to 38 special,9mm .
So I have said all that to say the choice of a 6" barrel from all the years of actual use not only by me-as only one former user-but many other depts still is the overall best utilitarian choice. Many LEO's preferred a 3.5" 27 or a 4"28 and then to the K frame 357's and the light weight bullets. The 6" barrel will produce slightly higher velocities than the 5" and it burns more of the powder than a 5".
A 4" barreled 357 magnum is too short to even approach the original velocities and not as accurate for 100 yd and beyond shots.
It has long been accepted amoung handgunners my age and those who came before me decades ago--that a 6" barreled 357 in a large frame congfiguration is a near perfect balanced gun for unaimed 7 yd shots as well as the very long single action shots.
The old style SWC is more accurate at longer ranges than the new -say-125 grn sjhp. Has to do with sectional density and so on.
****************************************************
I have participated in conversations with National and World Championship handgunners concerning the General utilitarian conclusions where the 357 magnum is concerned.
For 30 years-where I was present--the hands down winner--configuration wise was either a md 27 or 28 with a 6" barrel utilizing the original load data.
I have kept mental and written notes on the facts why those detuctions were made.
#1. The most important 'thing' any gun can do--where your life is at stake is to be reliable--the N frame Smith is absolutely that and has proven that over and over again for over 60 years.
#2. Power
#3. Accuracy
****************************************************
I carried the 6" N frame everyday for 30 years.
I carry it as CCW each time I put my pants on now. I do not shower with it because it might blow a hole in my shampoo bottle and I don't sleep with it because the grips will leave a ugly mark on the side of your face if you fall asleep on top of it. Outside of that I have killed mules and other animals with it.
I do not complain about the 3lbs of it---my life is worth that.
It is powerful from the 7 to 100 yds and more and is accurate concerning the same situations.
All that is required of a 357mag round to 'do' is to be able to hit a 4-5" circle at any distance. That represents the size of a human head. I do not know if any other depts trained and instructed the shots to be placed in the 'center of mass' but we did not and do/did not consider that a instant kill area and in fact it is not.
I subscribe to single shot --guns for long distance shots. They are chambered for what I consider rifle rounds. My first one was a T/C which was chambered in .222 I had it rechambered for 5.56 round.
I know there are many handgun rounds which have a greater range than the 357 but the guns and caliber combinations to not have the versitility of the guns which are designed to shoot 357 ammo.
Some handgunners who like the 357 round prefer the smaller framed guns or other brands than a S&W.
I understand that you ,or others, have never owned a large frame magnum revolver. I have S&W and Ruger 357's and love them all. I see the price of used 27's and 28's are getting higher and higher. I paid $180 for a new md 28 in 1969. The 27 was $225. If you don't own one then I suggest you add it to your shooters collection. I have attempted to wear mine out by shooting it with full power ammo. So far over thirty years has not hurt it so I suppose it will last a few more and then I will probably be gone and my son can continue with it.
Lastly, I will indicate that if you purchase a 6" heavy frame 357 then you will not have any regrets for short and long distance shots. The big framed guns are more pleasurable to shoot and I think they last longer.
If you are considering a CCW-only-handgun then that is a whole different set of needs -where some are concerned. I have spent the total sum of my handgunning with only five handguns. A person cannot live long enough to master a vast number of handguns and I see no need to own guns if you do not learn to master them.
Don Mallard
That length has to do with many factors.
It has none to do with my personal preference.I have always regarded the handgun as a working tool. I have a fun revolver and it is a .22 rimfire. I am in a 'formally' unique situation where the N frame 357 is concerned.
My State's DPS was the first Law Enforcement organization to utilize the then new N frame-in 357 magnum.
I realize the FBI used one in the fatal shootout with The Ma Barker Gang-in Florida and The FBI used the 5" md 27 for some duty service but it should be factually noted that they did not utilize that particular gun and no others.
I suggest, at this point, to observe some facts where the 357 is concerned ---- what a 357 magnum is and what it is not.
A 357 magnum is a hard cast, copper coated, SWC bullet which weighs around 158-160 grns.
It was designed to have a muzzle velocity from a non-vented Smith and Wesson revolver. I know for fact that no special gun was used to achieve the velocity of 1550fps. My state has a duplicate Copper Pressure Test device such as the one Winchester used to determine the pressure of that round.
My State has hot temperatures and a major concern-on our part-was that the high pressure round might prove to be unsafe since there was little actual Law enforcement use from which any substantial data could be gathered.
Winchester Western utilized a slow burning pistol power which maintained a close spread of velocity and no 'spike' readings CUP were encountered by them, S&W R&D, The FBI or us.
That powder is of course 2400.
Right out of the gate a major concession was made.
The FBI did not like the 8+" barrel or the sharp target sight.
The next logical platform was the 6".
The original velocity is 'some' over 1400fps from a 6".
The FBI did not favor the 6" so the 5" was developed by S&W to pacify them. The velocity from a 5" is not 1400fps.
The accuracy from a 5or6" did not suffer and in fact the penetration on hard wood test blocks was not signifigantly reduced. The Super-X AP rounds will crack the cast iron engine block of a then passenger car.
At this point I can only submit the facts which I became aware of 30+years ago and that is the velocity reduction from 1550 to even 1400fps was not enough to substantially reduce the energy level to the point that a 'whole different set of values concerning it's properties' were uncovered. For example---a 38 special is rated with a 158grn lead bullet with a standard velocity of 850fps. If that velocity is reduced 150fps then the literal properties become of 38 S&W nature. You should note that in case you do not know that a 38S&W is basically a 38 short and the 357 magnum is a 38 long. A 150 fps loss where the 357 is concerned did not substantially reduce its level of 'acceptance' with the first law enforcement organizations. My State's DPS and many,many more conducted scores of test with the 5and6" barreled 27's. Actual Law Enforcements use of deadly force with the same indicated a vastly improved round where men and hard barriers were concerned when compared to 38 special,9mm .
So I have said all that to say the choice of a 6" barrel from all the years of actual use not only by me-as only one former user-but many other depts still is the overall best utilitarian choice. Many LEO's preferred a 3.5" 27 or a 4"28 and then to the K frame 357's and the light weight bullets. The 6" barrel will produce slightly higher velocities than the 5" and it burns more of the powder than a 5".
A 4" barreled 357 magnum is too short to even approach the original velocities and not as accurate for 100 yd and beyond shots.
It has long been accepted amoung handgunners my age and those who came before me decades ago--that a 6" barreled 357 in a large frame congfiguration is a near perfect balanced gun for unaimed 7 yd shots as well as the very long single action shots.
The old style SWC is more accurate at longer ranges than the new -say-125 grn sjhp. Has to do with sectional density and so on.
****************************************************
I have participated in conversations with National and World Championship handgunners concerning the General utilitarian conclusions where the 357 magnum is concerned.
For 30 years-where I was present--the hands down winner--configuration wise was either a md 27 or 28 with a 6" barrel utilizing the original load data.
I have kept mental and written notes on the facts why those detuctions were made.
#1. The most important 'thing' any gun can do--where your life is at stake is to be reliable--the N frame Smith is absolutely that and has proven that over and over again for over 60 years.
#2. Power
#3. Accuracy
****************************************************
I carried the 6" N frame everyday for 30 years.
I carry it as CCW each time I put my pants on now. I do not shower with it because it might blow a hole in my shampoo bottle and I don't sleep with it because the grips will leave a ugly mark on the side of your face if you fall asleep on top of it. Outside of that I have killed mules and other animals with it.
I do not complain about the 3lbs of it---my life is worth that.
It is powerful from the 7 to 100 yds and more and is accurate concerning the same situations.
All that is required of a 357mag round to 'do' is to be able to hit a 4-5" circle at any distance. That represents the size of a human head. I do not know if any other depts trained and instructed the shots to be placed in the 'center of mass' but we did not and do/did not consider that a instant kill area and in fact it is not.
I subscribe to single shot --guns for long distance shots. They are chambered for what I consider rifle rounds. My first one was a T/C which was chambered in .222 I had it rechambered for 5.56 round.
I know there are many handgun rounds which have a greater range than the 357 but the guns and caliber combinations to not have the versitility of the guns which are designed to shoot 357 ammo.
Some handgunners who like the 357 round prefer the smaller framed guns or other brands than a S&W.
I understand that you ,or others, have never owned a large frame magnum revolver. I have S&W and Ruger 357's and love them all. I see the price of used 27's and 28's are getting higher and higher. I paid $180 for a new md 28 in 1969. The 27 was $225. If you don't own one then I suggest you add it to your shooters collection. I have attempted to wear mine out by shooting it with full power ammo. So far over thirty years has not hurt it so I suppose it will last a few more and then I will probably be gone and my son can continue with it.
Lastly, I will indicate that if you purchase a 6" heavy frame 357 then you will not have any regrets for short and long distance shots. The big framed guns are more pleasurable to shoot and I think they last longer.
If you are considering a CCW-only-handgun then that is a whole different set of needs -where some are concerned. I have spent the total sum of my handgunning with only five handguns. A person cannot live long enough to master a vast number of handguns and I see no need to own guns if you do not learn to master them.
Don Mallard
