2-stage trigger preference

[tangolima]

I like a 2-stage trigger. A true 2-stage trigger I mean, in which the longer 1st stage pull takes out the majority of sear engagement, so that the 2nd stage breaks crisp.

But still 2-stage triggers resets differently for follow-up shot. Some require excessive amount of trigger release to reset. After reset, a lot of them have noticeable slack to take out before 2nd stage starts again. I found it irritating. What do you think?

After some tinkering, I have found methods to make the reset short and the slack minimal. Would that be desirable features for a trigger job?

-TL


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[zukiphile]

After some tinkering, I have found methods to make the reset short and the slag minimal. Would that be desirable features for a trigger job?

It wouldn't for me, but it may be something for others.

I like a relatively heavy first stage with enough travel for me to notice, at least three pounds. I like the second stage to be relatively light and short. Some triggers, I'm looking at you, Geissele, have so much engagement left on the second stage that I can feel my finger rolling through it. That really undercuts the magic of a two stage trigger.

Long reset doesn't bother me, even the really long reset you'd find in the old Armalite triggers. However, I never have a need to shoot faster than my finger moves; 3 gun people might appreciate something like you describe.

 

[tangolima]

It wouldn't for me, but it may be something for others.



I like a relatively heavy first stage with enough travel for me to notice, at least three pounds. I like the second stage to be relatively light and short. Some triggers, I'm looking at you, Geissele, have so much engagement left on the second stage that I can feel my finger rolling through it. That really undercuts the magic of a two stage trigger.



Long reset doesn't bother me, even the really long reset you'd find in the old Armalite triggers. However, I never have a need to shoot faster than my finger moves; 3 gun people might appreciate something like you describe.

Excessive engagement in 2nd stage causes creep. The shooter is getting "false alarms" that the hammer/striker breaks. I don't like that. I have a Geissele that came with a used rifle I bought. It is fine. It is quite fixable with a trigger job or sending it back to Geissele.

The long reset and slack indeed hinders firing speed. It breaks the rhythm, I was told.

Thanks for your inputs.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

A true 2-stage trigger I mean, in which the longer 1st stage pull takes out the majority of sear engagement, so that the 2nd stage breaks crisp.

You and I define "true 2-stage trigger" differently. For me, a two stage trigger is the kind that has been used on military rifles (and some sporters) since about the time repeating firearms took over.

The first stage is essentially "free travel", Pull weight is very light, and it does not affect sear engagement in any way. It is the "slack" to be taken up before one reaches the actual trigger pull.

And, its there for a reason. Safety. Or rather a degree of safety, since no military ever trains all its shooters to the level of a civilian enthusiast, there are ALWAYS some people who will be moving around with their finger on the trigger. The first stage slack is there so that a sudden jar, or an accidental "clench" of the trigger finger (hopefully) does not fire the weapon unintendedly.

But still 2-stage triggers resets differently for follow-up shot. Some require excessive amount of trigger release to reset. After reset, a lot of them have noticeable slack to take out before 2nd stage starts again. I found it irritating. What do you think?

Resets differently from what?

Excessive? That is an opinion, entirely subjective, as Goldilocks illustrates.

Since there are nearly as many variations of "two stage" triggers as there are people making them, neither of us is wrong the way we define it, only if we make blanket statements that imply all of them do and work exactly the same way. Because that blanket has lots and lots of holes, some of them large ones.

 

[tangolima]

M1 garand has true 2-stage trigger. M1 carbine doesn't. They are both military rifles with 2-stage triggers. M1 garand has very good reset characteristics, although there is still a little slack. I wouldn't call it excessive.

I should have clarified. It is about trigger in semi auto rifle. No point talking about trigger reset otherwise. If you haven't come across a 2-stage trigger that you don't like, nothing is excessive.

They have different (not the same) reset characteristics. Different from each other. Some require long trigger release to reset, and some don't. Some have quite a bit of slack after reset, some don't.

-TL

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[zukiphile]

Excessive engagement in 2nd stage causes creep. The shooter is getting "false alarms" that the hammer/striker breaks. I don't like that. I have a Geissele that came with a used rifle I bought. It is fine. It is quite fixable with a trigger job or sending it back to Geissele.

I thought that was what Geissele meant by "breaks like a carrot" and never thought to send it to Geissele for further tuning.

I've tuned that out of triggers a couple of times, but I've also overdone it (education by error) and turned an ordinary two stage into what Geissele markets as a 3 gun trigger, a two stage in which the hammer doesn't touch the disconnector before it falls.

The long reset and slack indeed hinders firing speed. It breaks the rhythm, I was told.

I have no doubt that someone told you that and that they believe it. That style of shooting, where one finds a natural rhythm at which he fires and keeps a gun level, seem like something for which most people use single stage triggers.

If a trigger has a very short first stage and a very short reset, is it effectively (though not mechanically) a single stage trigger? Would the kind of customers who buy two stage triggers see the changes you can make as an improvement?

I don't have one, but TriggerTech makes a two stage cassette trigger with a first stage so light and short I wonder why they bothered. That's not a knock on their product, but an observation that there seems terribly little difference to a user between their single and two stage product.

 

[tangolima]

Geissele is expensive enough to be individually fitted. Its characteristics depend on the Smith who did the fitting. I believe they will take of it if you find yours creepy.

There are cheap ($60 ish) 2-stages under different brand names. I'm pretty sure they are mass produced by the same manufacturer. I bought one, the brand shall remain nameless, on sale for $40. It was horrible. It took me a few hours to refit it into a $200 equivalent. I wouldn't mind doing it again for my next trigger though.

I like 2-stage for its large engagement in 1st stage for safety and crisp break in 2nd stage. I don't mind it being light as long as it returns reliably by itself when the trigger pull is aborted. It must be long for the large engagement I need. But the 2nd stage must have enough added weight to have "hit the wall" effect. For follow up shots, the large engagement is not needed. The reset characteristics are similar to a single-stage, so reset and slack need to be short and minimal.

I don't go to matches. But I'd like to learn shooting fast. It is pretty cool to be able to shoot a semi auto fast as full auto in short bursts of no more than 5 rounds. Working on 2-round double tap now.

-TL

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[zukiphile]

There are cheap ($60 ish) 2-stages under different brand names. I'm pretty sure they are mass produced by the same manufacturer. I bought one, the brand shall remain nameless, on sale for $40. It was horrible.

I bought a Schmid used. Ruger, Centurion, PSA, etc. all seem to sell it under their own names. I think I liked it better than the Geissele with just a swap of the disco spring.

A Rock River varmint trigger has nice weight for me in both stages, and almost no over travel, but considerable reset distance.

I kind of hate the Larue as it is sold and they have a riveted in disco and spring. Larue's sear geometry is wrong. A two stage isn't supposed to cam the hammer when the trigger is pressed and first stage weight is supposed to come from the trigger spring, not the hammer. I also dislike the trigger face. I press it with the tip of my finger pointing back at me because the edges are sharp, and had a callous over it one summer. However most egregious is the trigger spring. It feels as if it might not reset. Even their heavy duty spring doesn't really give a positive reset.

Once I fished out the disco spring and replaced it with a weaker spring, it was pretty good, but the second stage travel was more apparent. People talk about how crisp the break is, but it's really that the disco spring is so strong that they aren't feeling the travel.


Read trigger threads at a certain site focused on the AR, and you'll see a lot of good/better/best conclusions without any discussion of what makes them all different. Triggers are a funny subject because 1) what a trigger feels like to someone may be more important than what is transpiring mechanically, and B) lots of people think they know what they like and why they like it, but they may be very wrong. Trying to figure out the customer in that market would be difficult.

But I'd like to learn shooting fast.

Me too, but I'm still learning to shoot slowly, and not doing a great job of it either.

 

[tangolima]

I like slightly positive engagement (hammer cammed back very slightly). It is safer that way, and all military triggers are like that. Neutral engagement (no camming) has lighter pull. But it can become negative (hammer creeping forward) with wear. The disconnect spring determines the added weight for 2nd stage. Correct it is way too stiff in the cheap trigger. I replaced it right away.

-TL


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[zukiphile]

It isn't my motive to derail your thread; I find the topic interesting.

I'm not a fast shooter and I've tried a lot of the two stage triggers that have been in the market over the last 15 years or so. (Two stage triggers have an advantage in some of my rifles that are rimfires and require a much less powerful hammer strike -- I can use a reduced power hammer spring with very little influence on the pull weights.) In offhand shooting, I found that I was developing a dip when I hit the wall of the 2d stage. I've tried to focus on the automaticity of the decision to fire.

Toward that end, I've tried a single stage or two. I've tried the government style but polished trigger from Unbranded AR. It's probably seven pounds and has a smooth pull. However a reduced power hammer spring on a government style hammer gives a lock time you can measure with a calendar. I'm currently on a Hiperfire EDT, a single stage trigger with the sear located nearer the trigger pivot pin and the hammer engagement farther from the hammer pin. It also has a lighter hammer, so it's still fast with a low power spring. With a geissele high speed national match service rifle trigger spring (on sale now for $9), the EDT with reduced power hammer spring will hold 5.5 pounds, has a moderate travel, is extremely smooth, and has an aggressive, heavy reset. With a standard trigger spring, the same trigger hold only two pounds, and feels much less smooth.

There's no wall to warn of the break, but I think that's what the bullet hose, 3 gun shooters like about single stage triggers.

 

[tangolima]

No at all. It is always interesting to discuss trigger as it is very subjective.

With the mods, my trigger now has very short reset and literally zero slack after reset. When it resets it is right at the wall, ready to break. It is tighter than any 2-stage triggers I have used. It is originally the discontinued Jewell AR 2-stage. Reset was unbearably long. No wonder it didn't sell.

2-stage is more popular in Europe than in America. American shooters find the first stage take up (slack) objectionable, and most of them flock to single-stage. I'm open to both, but with preference towards 2-stage, true 2-stage. There are a lot of 2-stage triggers that are fake 2-stage. I don't really care about those, but I can tolerate.

-TL

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