2 Kevlar Vests vs. a .308?

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twoblink

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So I'm at the police station the other day, and there's a rookie cop, 110% attitude, and of course didn't think I knew anything about guns, even though I'd probably out shoot him.

I was telling him about a kid I caught trying jimmy a car at 3am, and how I scared him. He said I should have called the cops at that moment. I told him I wasn't armed at the time, and I didn't know if he was alone or there was more than one, so I got outta there first.

He then had the cockiest comment, he said "That's why you call us, we are trained and prepared for stuff like this. That's why I wear several of these." He points to his vest. Now I'm no vest expert by any stretch of the imagination, but he wore a thick on on the outside, and a thin one under his shirt. The thick one was almost 2" thick, and the thin one was about 1".

I was thinking to myself, "So what? A shot in the armpit and you'd go down, or better yet, a shot in the mouth, and lights out."

But then I started wondering, will 2 bullet proof vests stop a 308?? I was going to say something snide like "Why don't you stand in front of my M1A and see how tough you are."

I'm very pro cop, most of the ones around here are very nice and I get along with them very well, at least the ones in my city. The ones in downtown LA however, think we are all idiots, and are rude, and the rookies are brash and cocky. I can't stand cocky cops, they usually get killed or get someone else killed.

So, 2 vest, vs. .308? Who wins?

Albert
 
From what i here the new Kevlar Vest that the Military is now useing will stop 7.62 but they don't say if thats a 7.62x51 or a 7.62x39.
 
He might be alive but he wouldn't feel much like dancing.

If everyone starts wearing Kevlar, center-of-mass is likely to move south. You can't stop progress.
 
I haven't done the math, but here's what it says from Federals homepage on their American Eagle 308Win round:

Energy:
Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 yards.
2650 2285 1965 1680 1430 1205

Assuming I shoot him at almost point blank, even if the vest stops it, this is getting hit by a car at something like 35mph? Yes? That's a lot of energy dump, I mean enough to flip a full sized deer over from the stuff I've seen. So even if the bullet is blocked, his innerds look like oatmeal??? I can't imagine blocking a 7.62x51 and living to tell about it, or at least let's put it this way, quality of life would be greatly reduced by factors??

Albert
 
gee.. sounds like he needs an extra trauma plate in a briefcase...

;)

(well SOMEONE had to say it....)

-K
 
Go to this web page:
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/new/sas.html

It's Pinnacle Armor's web page.

Go to the bottom.

Download the video.

Watch a guy shoot a .308 FAL into a dummy wearing a vest from a distance of 15 feet. They claim there is no penetration, but I'm not sure that a human could survive the deformation that the energy dump of the bullet would cause. I would also like to see how well the vest would hold up under black tip ammo. :)
 
A .308 round hits the vest. A fella is liable to say more than ow! quit it! I think an audible grunt followed by silence as he is put down by blunt force trauma. How about multiple shots? Ow! quit it? Nope! More like a ride on the toe tag express! Then again there are the head shots bad guys are so famous for!
How about moving up to .30-06 for an interesting test!:eek:
 
Twoblink, the physics are pretty simple - something like "for each and every action, there is an equal opposite reaction". If it won't knock you down to shoot it, it won't knock someone else down. Period.

Knock down is a myth and back deformation on a vest is much more survivable than no vest.

Giz
 
The energy from the recoil of a fire arm is spread out over the area of the butt plate. The energy from the bullet impact is concentrated in one small spot. The penetration may be stopped but I would guess that the energy dump in one spot will at the very least break ribs. Not exactly a fun thing to have happen. I also seem to remember in the infamous LAPD vs bank robber shootout that one of the firearms that the LAPD "borrowed" from the neighborhood sporting good store was a 12 gauge "alley sweeper" loaded with slugs. From my understanding the energy dump killed one of the bad guys even though it did not penetrate. I will put it this way ............ no matter what kind of vest I want to be the shooter not the shootee! Remember a hit in the center of mass need not penetrate, all it has to do is stun or incapacitate for a moment or two. Just long enough for a killing shot to be made, to a spot not covered by armor. I have heard that there are some vests that will also stop ought six AP. That may well be so, but again I want to be on the sending end, not the receiving end.
 
Gizmo,

I can't offer a good physics based argument against that (been too long since I studied that), but I can just say that from common sense you are wrong. The rifle butt spreads the energy out over a larger number of square inches than the small impact point of a .30 cal bullet (resulting in a marked decrease in pound per square inch pressure), also the weight of the rifle absorbs much of the energy. With a Kevlar vest (or two) the soft vest will be shoved backwards (with a lot of force) several inches (I'd guess close to 10" at that amount of energy). His spleen, liver, bladder (if full) will all almost definately be ruptured causing massive internal bleeding with broken ribs and probably puntured lungs from the ribs. Even if it doesn't penetrate, 99.99% of people will be put out of action.

MHO

Kilgor
 
In my M1A, a lot of the recoil is used to cycle the round, that's why a semi is softer than a bolt action in terms of recoil for the same round.

F=Ma.

That means while the guy as a lot more mass than my bullet, my bullet has a lot more 'a', and thus the great amount of F. Trust me, if I was shooting something that will knock me on my butt, he will be glued by it against the wall, assuming the wall stays intact. Your math is flawed.

I don't care if the bullet penetrates, I don't think you can be all happy about the fact, that much energy is dumped in such a small area, at such a rate. The slew rate of the energy dump cannot not be that easy to survive...

Albert.
 
I'm not buying it for a second

Dummies aren't people (though some people are dummies). Vests may be able to stop weak handgun bullets, but a .308 is a whole different universe. It's the difference between the 400 ft. lbs. of a 45 ACP and the *2,400* ft. lbs. or more of a .308. Thousands of movies have convinced us that handguns are as potent as rifles, but it ain't necessarily so. If you want a graphic demonstration, I've found a neat little pic of what even the "underpowered" .30-30 does to a man's head (warning--it's graphic!):

http://vatican.rotten.com/gunshot/30-30.html

That's gonna hurt in the morning. This amazed me at first, but when you think about it, the "weak" .30-30 is about equal to the "mighty" .454 Casull in energy.

I'll believe the vests will stop a high-powered rifle round when a mall ninja takes that kind of hit in the chest or gut and lives without the need for major surgery and a bunch of tubes to keep him alive.
 
I believe the level VI armor can stop a 308 round. I could be wrong here but I think level VI armor consists of ceramic plates. Don't think a practical kevlar only vest could stop a 308 round. Naturally a ceramic plate would distibute out the force more and make a hit survivable.
 
Right Maurice.

7.62x39 is the ballistic equivalent to a 30-30 with a sharpnosed 125 grain bullet.

Kilgor
 
I saw a demonstration video of a man, wearing bulky body armor, being voluntarily shot by a FAL at close range. He swayed back, but didn't drop. The body armor may have been one of a kind, because I've never seen anything like it again and I can guarantee this rookie wasn't wearing it.
 
Like I said, the math doesn't play right. If you get hit by a car going about 35mph, you might _NOT_ have a hole in ya, but you will have blunt force trama.

The pics were gory, but very cool. Just as I suspected.

What I wish they showed on the video was if there are serious dents in the dummy. Keep in mind, there might not be penetration, but there might be a 3" deep punch without penetration, which would still break all the ribs and render your liver into oatmeal or grits..

Albert
 
There are different types of vests to stop different kinds of ammo. Soft body armor stops different handgun and shotgun loads, depending on armor level and ammo caliber and type. Class II soft body armor can stop most handgun rounds, class IIIA nearly all handgun and shotgun loads.

To stop rifle caliber ammo hard body armor (steel or ceramic) is used. To stop .308 class III (hard) armor is enough, class IV can stop threats up to .30-06 AP. I have never heard of soft body armor that stops .308, but of course that is possible when the energy has gone down to handgun level after a long flight (like 1000 yards or something).

Ossi
 
Having center punched several small critters with a 270 grain bullet launched by a .375 H&H without them doing back flips like the movies, I feel pretty confident that knock down is a myth. Those mathamatical energy figures are just paper scribbilings.

SouthLA has it right - better to be a shooter than a shootee.

One thing about soft body armor is that it has ratings - some will stop lots, some little.

I'd much rather have to suffer deformation of the vest than penetration by the bullet, regardless of the caliber.
 
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