1st shot issue from cold barrel

homesick

New member
My question is the 1st shot from a cold clean or cold fouled barrel are about 3/4" high 2nd shot is a tad lower, at this point the rest of the shoots are right where it's sighted in at 1" high at 100. I have 3 varmint rifles 2 do this the third does not.
1 Savage 12 BTCSS 204 Ruger this rifle does this.
2 Ruger 77 Mk II 22-250 this rifle also does this.
3 Remington 700 223 VLS this rifle does not do this.
None are glass bedded / all are free floated, all are factory bed jobs.

All 3 rifles will shoot 5 shot groups in the 0.300 MOA at 100 yds. (sub 3/8s")
The 204 has gone as many as 4 shots before it settled down never out side 3/4" but once it gets some body heat it has shot 10 shot groups inside 0.420

Does any one have a cure or something I can try to stop this cold barrel walking. I have tried different action screw tightnesses but not a great deal as accuracy fell off and still had cold barrel jitters.
Iam very interested to hear your thoughts, if you have it too and what you did to cure it, if any thing.
 
Homesick, I'll be looking to hear some answers on this too. My POI changes at least 0.5" from cold to warm, so when working up loads and shooting groups, I always compare apples to apples and start with a warm (but not hot!) barrel.

When hunting season comes around, I will simply zero the scope to a cold, fouled barrel; of course, this takes a lot of time allowing the barrel to cool completely before making subsequent shots, so I make sure to have plenty of ammo and other rifles on hand to pass time :)
 
Yep, that's pretty common. The first shot from a clean, cold bore goes to a different place. The second shot goes somewhere else. Generally, somewhere close, but somewhere else.

That's good to know. Hunters, especially want to know exactly where that first shot is going. Here's another secret; that first shot from a cold, fouled barrel will go somewhere else, too. That's the one I'm looking for. In August, I'll decide on my primary hunting gun for the season, and I'll give that rifle a thorough cleaning, then I'll take it to the range over the course of several weeks and take just exactly one shot. I won't clean that rifle again till after the end of the season, but I want to know where that first shot is going to hit the target.
 
Hello Mr. Deer,
Would you mind putting on this pair of hearing muffs while I shoot 2-3 rounds from my rifle and get a stable POI?
Thanks ! :)
 
Utopia texas G19
I already use custom molded ear plugs, thank you.
I have set up the shooting bench with sandbags, padded, heated stool, & wind direction flags for your comfort. During deer season, I can be expected to be at the 100 yard line between 0621 am & 0703 am Also between 1732 pm & 1824 pm. I do expect you to liberally douse yourself with deer cologne (doe pee).

Sincerely :rolleyes:
A. Buck Deer
 
Homesick

There is no "cure" because there is no sickness. It's perfectly normal.

For a competition/varmint/any other gun which will see steady shooting, zero using a warm bore (burn about 10 shots, 30 seconds between each shot, then zero your sights).

For deer/elk/bear/moose/etc guns that will likely see only one or two shots at a time, zero your sights using a cold bore. It can be a clean bore or a fouled bore, but if you're using a clean bore, make sure you run a few patches through your rifle each night during hunting season.

In all honesty though, we're really only talking about an inch or so. I've never shot a deer that would have been any less dead if the bullet had landed an inch in any given direction...
 
You could try cryogenic stress relief. Sometimes that can remove enough of the stresses that contribute to the difference between cold and warm bore point of impact. Kind of expensive though.

Jimro
 
A high quality rifle with premium ammo reduces the probability of this happening. After cleaning the barrel fire one shot and the next out of a cold barrel should be on target as sighted in. With a thin barrel groups can walk an open up as the barrel heats up but a bull barrel will help keep groups tight even with some heating.
 
There are two answers to this I've heard that make the most sense to me. Easiest to accept for those of us with an ego is that every barrel is different and differences in density and other factors can affect accuracy. Back in the day one of the guys I served with was issued an M40A1 that just wouldn't hold a cold-bore zero. It went back to the armory and when he asked how they fixed it he was told they just swapped out the barrel. Problem solved.
When a Gunsmith puts together that perfect combination of parts, fit and finish to make something that's harmonically balanced and even and straight and hits what you aim at first time every time... KEEP IT! I am fortunate enough to have 2 such masterpieces. One is a 40X Repeater in 7.62 NATO and the other is a custom built Remington 700 from the 90's that was a Police Sniper Rifle.

The other answer is that no matter how good we are at shooting, we need to settle-in to our shooting position and hold on the rifle. This is least widely accepted but just as likely.
 
Perfectly normal and why I don't clean my barrels until after hunting season. I don't have any issues with a cold, fouled barrel, but the 1st few shots from a clean barrel will be slightly different.
 
This subject's been up for discussion since barrels were made for projectiles instead of something else. And lots of myths have sprung up through the reasoning of some folks claiming to be knowledgable. Here's my take on it and some points I'll make may dispell some of those myths.

First off, factory barrels in over-the-counter rifles as well as standard government service rifle barrels seem to do it the most. I've had some and every one had the same problem; first shot was off and subsequent ones less so for a few to several shots were fired. Close examiniation of their bores revealed that a squeaky clean barrel with no bullet jacket copper wash was in it was the worst culprit. Some bullet jacket material was wiped off the first bullet fired from such a barrel and it was unbalanced enough to shoot wild as it left the muzzle. Subsequent bullets had copper washed off but less so as the rough bore surfaces began filling up with copper. After a few to several shots, no more jacket material was wiped off bullets and they shot to point of aim as determined by earlier firing.

There's claims (in this thread, even) that all barrels are not the same in their metalurgy (density, grain structure, temper, hardness, and other factors related to uniformity in a round bar of steel). As they heat up from shots fired, they start bending and after a few to several shots, their muzzle points to a different place relative to where the sights point. It is true that some barrels change point of impact as they heat up, but in every one of the several I've had stopped that when one simple thing was changed. The receiver face was squared up with the barrel tenon threads in its front end. When the original barrel was refitted and shimmed enoug to make headspace the same as it clocked in to the same place. That barrel no longer changed impact as it heated up. The reason was there was a high point on the receiver face that beared harder against the barrel as it expanded from heat and that stress point made the barrel bend a bit away from that point.

One post in this thread mentions "When a Gunsmith puts together that perfect combination of parts, fit and finish to make something that's harmonically balanced and even and straight and hits what you aim at first time every time... KEEP IT" What the heck does "harmonically balanced" mean? To me, that's a new term in the language of gunsmithing. I know that every barreled action out there whips at its same resonant frequency for every shot fired because it's the same dimension and has the same material in it and is held in the stock the same way for every shot. It doesn't change as the barrel heats up; barrel steel's that way. Harmonics are nothing more than multiples of that resonant frequency but the amount the barreled action wiggles and whips at those higher frequencies is much, much less than at the fundamental or resonant one. The only difference is how much they wiggle and that's determined by how powerful the load is that's fired in it. For a given load, it's very repeatable from shot to shot. Stiffer ones whip at higher frequencies; flimsier ones at lower frequencies, just like a guitar string. Even a guitar string sounds the same note regardless of how hard it's plucked.

Then there's the situation wherein the person shooting the rifle doesn't quite do it well for the first few shots. I've done that. Took me several shots with a good match rifle to shoot consistantly to point of aim. I used to think it was the barrel needing to be fouled enough with bullet jacket copper. When I finally learned how to shoot correctly starting with the first shot, that same barrel shot to point of aim starting with the first shot from a cold barrel went to the same place as one 25 or so rounds later when it was skin-burning hot. Three cheers for a good barrel that didn't scrape off jacket material any significant amount and what it did was uniform all the way around. Didn't take much cleaning to get that minute amount of copper out of the barrel compared to rougher ones such as regular arsenal or factory barrels.

A good barrel with a bore smooth enough not to scrape off significant amounts of bullet jacket and is properly stress relieved and fit to a receiver will shoot to point of aim from cold to very hot. The exception is a .22 rimfire match grade barrel; they need to be "seasoned" with a few shots after they're cleaned so the bullets leave at the same velocity. Folks have been shooting such barrels in long range matches for decades and they don't change point of impact through a couple dozen shots fired 30 to 40 seconds apart. Some may shoot the first or second shot out a few fps slower than those following as the barrel's not powder fouled enough to create higher pressure. It isn't normally seen at the target at ranges less than 300 yards and's typically less than 1/2 MOA difference at longer ranges.

And finally, the barrel that just changes point of impact as it starts out and goes through several shots before stabilizing regardless of being properly fitted to a receiver and the shooter does all the right stuff. That's a barrel that's not been stress relieved properly. More common with cheap aftermarket barrels and can happen with factory barrels. There's no fix for these unless the barrel maker can reheat treat it and stress relieve it.
 
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I've had good results from tweaking with the forearm bedding on my two pet hunting rifles. Free-floated, with a low-pressure shim at the forearm tip. The only "first shot flier" I've ever noted was from a clean barrel. Even that was not an "always" event. Groups were consistently tight for five shots, although for checking sight-in I only use three-shot groups.

So, I'm sorta half a believer in a fouling shot before going hunting or going for a group. I guess that if my rifle is put together properly, the groups will always be tight from first shot to fifth shot.

In the FWIW department, my pet '06 was reliably 3/4 MOA for five shots, and 1-1/8 MOA for ten shots. (My eyes were younger, back then. :))
 
Thanks Bart B. for the response seems to open up a lot of possibilities, and does give some options if one wants to address this issue.
 
I'm certainly no expert but I believe you just start shooting until you feel comfortable with your piece, whichever one it may be.......if you lay off a while.....then your shot grouping will suffer............

all the science in the world can not keep up with a shooter that is comfortable with his or her piece and that comes mainly by shooting it.......

just shoot it....and it will tighten up that group to what you want one way or the other........if you're serious about it....eventually you will get what you want

or "suffer" greatly trying......all the things discussed here

know your piece and know it well
 
I don't think there many hunters that aren't worry about first shot from a cold bore as we don't get much chance to shoot in those hunting conditions.

Last year it got down to 15 below on my elk tag. I've got good build hunting rifles and I still like to foul those barrels before hunting season starts.
 
The first shot out of both my rifles (clean barrels) will be a "flyer". Only 1/2"-3/4" off of normal group but still not where I'm sighted in. I shoot a couple "fouling shots" before sighting in and before going hunting.
 
Assuming that you can't get the rifles to shoot cold and warm to the same POI, you need to either use a compromise setting that results in acceptable hits on either target or game, or decide which setting to use for whatever use and mark that on the scope adjustments.

For instance, if you're hunting varmints with a 3" kill circle and set the scope to hit 3/8" high on the cold side, you should hit within that 3" circle on the first and subsequent shots out to 300 yards without further adjustments, except for normal distance/windage. If the kill zone is only 2", you'll still be okay out to about 225 yards.

Unless you're using a laser rangefinder and a wind meter, field POI due to distance and wind miscalculation will far exceed your particular cold-warm barrel variations.

Okay, if you're not happy with the above method, consider using the cold barrel setting (marked on the adjustment wheels) for first shots when hunting, then, as the barrel warms from shooting at p-dogs, adjust the scope for the warm shot zero. Scopes with adjustable zero settings make this a fairly easy thing to do.

When shooting targets, use the warm shot zero and fire warm-up shots on a sighter until the POI stabilizes.
 
If I clean my 7600 the first shot is way out maybe 2-3". After that it hold pretty tight to POA within a 1/2". Cold barrel doesnt seem to affect the shot but a lubed barrel shure does. I test fire right before hunting season and dont clean it until after season is over. At least not the barrel and action. When hunting I only need one shot per tag anyway.
 
homesick asked:

1st shot issue from cold barrel
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Does any one have a cure or something I can try to stop this cold barrel walking.

No don't have a fix for a cold barrel first shot flier.
BUT I fixed one of my rifles that would shoot a first shot flier due to a clean barrel.

Are you sure its due to a "cold barrel"?
 
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