copy this and pass it around to the doubters
it is sobering to say the least http://guntruths.com/Resource/Posters/1st_million_mom_march.htm
it is sobering to say the least http://guntruths.com/Resource/Posters/1st_million_mom_march.htm
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1st Million Mom March
- Thread starter Solitar
- Start date
As others have said when this poster was first posted here a few weeks ago ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There are ways to make a point. And then there are inopportune ways. This, I feel, is one of those.
I could walk up to one of the mothers in the march and spit in their face, and call them names. But THAT would be inopportune. There are other ways to make a point, to get a thought across.
I believe it is rational thinking. I believe that the Holocaust is - in a way - sacred ground for tens of millions of families around the world.
Let's not trash this sacred ground with the incoherent shrills of Rosie O'Donnell.
It hurts us as defenders of Liberty and Freedom because, though it is pure and unfiltered truth, it alienates those who would join us; and galvanizes those who oppose us.
It hurts us as defenders of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for the same reasons that we use to discredit the antis: emotionally appealing, shocking, pictures and statistics.
I will say no more about this, but there are some images that are too sacred, intimate and tragic to be used for any purposes.
Those ladies have suffered way more than any of us ever will. To replay their last tragic violation as a means to any goal is immoral before any objective tribunal of decent humanity.[/quote]
I could walk up to one of the mothers in the march and spit in their face, and call them names. But THAT would be inopportune. There are other ways to make a point, to get a thought across.
I believe it is rational thinking. I believe that the Holocaust is - in a way - sacred ground for tens of millions of families around the world.
Let's not trash this sacred ground with the incoherent shrills of Rosie O'Donnell.
It hurts us as defenders of Liberty and Freedom because, though it is pure and unfiltered truth, it alienates those who would join us; and galvanizes those who oppose us.
It hurts us as defenders of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for the same reasons that we use to discredit the antis: emotionally appealing, shocking, pictures and statistics.
I will say no more about this, but there are some images that are too sacred, intimate and tragic to be used for any purposes.
Those ladies have suffered way more than any of us ever will. To replay their last tragic violation as a means to any goal is immoral before any objective tribunal of decent humanity.[/quote]
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
As FUD mentioned above, this was posted here a few weeks ago. Here is the link: http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27240
That thread ran its course and was closed due to size. FUD did a great job in summing up what was a very heated discussion.
This thread may do nothing more than open some fairly fresh wounds. I will leave it open for now, with reservations. I would also caution all that the poster in question has served to divide us in the past; let's not let it happen again.
Read the original thread before adding any comments, please. There's certainly nothing wrong with discussing controversial issues, but if it becomes a pointless re-hashing of the same old arguments, this thread will be closed.
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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
That thread ran its course and was closed due to size. FUD did a great job in summing up what was a very heated discussion.
This thread may do nothing more than open some fairly fresh wounds. I will leave it open for now, with reservations. I would also caution all that the poster in question has served to divide us in the past; let's not let it happen again.
Read the original thread before adding any comments, please. There's certainly nothing wrong with discussing controversial issues, but if it becomes a pointless re-hashing of the same old arguments, this thread will be closed.
------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
I've read the archived thread. There is one important point that was not understood. TheBluesMan and Scott Evans came the closest came the closest to explaining it. To put it more succinctly...
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Thus, as horrible as it was, we should not let their sacrifice be in vain because it was forgotten. There are many who will doubt the authenticity of the photos. They will say it was staged. Some will say such things did not happen.
Oatka had one of the most telling quotes.
"I lived in an apartment run by two German ladies, both with numbers on their forearms. The only time they said anything was when I foolishly commented that "the Jews should have shot the SOBs". One lady stared/glared at me and said, "Young man, they wouldn't let us own guns." My education began then."
The poster is wrong in one respect. It was not the first million mom march. There was also the "Trail of Tears" http://www.peachstar.org/ga_stories/topics/036t/homepg.htm
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Thus, as horrible as it was, we should not let their sacrifice be in vain because it was forgotten. There are many who will doubt the authenticity of the photos. They will say it was staged. Some will say such things did not happen.
Oatka had one of the most telling quotes.
"I lived in an apartment run by two German ladies, both with numbers on their forearms. The only time they said anything was when I foolishly commented that "the Jews should have shot the SOBs". One lady stared/glared at me and said, "Young man, they wouldn't let us own guns." My education began then."
The poster is wrong in one respect. It was not the first million mom march. There was also the "Trail of Tears" http://www.peachstar.org/ga_stories/topics/036t/homepg.htm
Unfortunately, we as American citizens are collectively not forgetting history. We are denying it with rationalizations that we have evolved (except in Kansas) past our primative selves. We will repeat it. Hopefully, this time historians write history books that are sympathetic to the plight of oppressed minorities; it will be less of a sin to teach it then in the public school systems.
When I looked at that poster, in rebuttal to Soltair, there was no sacrifice, there was no giving for a greater good, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was ripped from their bodies.
When I looked at that poster, in rebuttal to Soltair, there was no sacrifice, there was no giving for a greater good, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was ripped from their bodies.
Jonathan Chenault
New member
TO FUD:
I'm tired of everyone's thinking today that it is a disgrace to offend someone.that site i guaruntee will get more people to think that some man getting up an making a speech, being careful to be politically correct. People dont change their minds about things unless they are made to by being offended. this makes them have to think why they believe this way.the subject of gun control is very serious and people getting up and making "nice" speeches isnt cutting it. its time to rise up and get angry that our rights are being infringed upon.its time to quit worrying about offending people and make our points however we can...
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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
Phil 4:13
I'm tired of everyone's thinking today that it is a disgrace to offend someone.that site i guaruntee will get more people to think that some man getting up an making a speech, being careful to be politically correct. People dont change their minds about things unless they are made to by being offended. this makes them have to think why they believe this way.the subject of gun control is very serious and people getting up and making "nice" speeches isnt cutting it. its time to rise up and get angry that our rights are being infringed upon.its time to quit worrying about offending people and make our points however we can...
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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
Phil 4:13
TO Jonathan Chenault: A majority of anti's could go either way dependingon who gets to them first. Show them a poster which is offensive to tens of millions of families and guess which way they are going to go and guess which way they are going to vote and guess where your gun rights are going to go?
Rosie O'Donnell and company are offensive to gun-owners because they do not argue logically. Instead, they use emotionally appealing, shocking, pictures and statistics to get their point across. We discredit them for that and now we're doing the same thing.
A poster like this divides us as gun owners and it alienates those who would join us.
Don't believe me? Look at us right now ... we're arguing back & forth with regard to images that I think are too sacred, intimate and tragic to be used for any purposes.
Remember, united we stand and divided we fall. Let's use the poster to speak for us so that we can divide ourselves even further.
Rosie O'Donnell and company are offensive to gun-owners because they do not argue logically. Instead, they use emotionally appealing, shocking, pictures and statistics to get their point across. We discredit them for that and now we're doing the same thing.
A poster like this divides us as gun owners and it alienates those who would join us.
Don't believe me? Look at us right now ... we're arguing back & forth with regard to images that I think are too sacred, intimate and tragic to be used for any purposes.
Remember, united we stand and divided we fall. Let's use the poster to speak for us so that we can divide ourselves even further.
As an aside, I had a discussion in which Rape of Nanking (one week in 1937, 300,000+ civilians tortured to death) with a woman whose relatives still remember it. She had admitted that firearms would have been an improvement over her beloved swords in that one case. Somehow, the lack of elegance that guns suffer by comparison with good blades seemed unimportant when the alternative was a fate worse than the images in the MMM poster.
Then again, this woman is a conservative and a will call things as she sees them.
Then again, this woman is a conservative and a will call things as she sees them.
Many of us lose sight of the unfortuate fact that factual, statistical arguments get nowhere with those who base their arguments on emotion. We have seen the fact slung with vigor and unassailable documentation - only to be ignored or denied and rebutted with emotional arguments. I could cite lots of examples on lots of topics - national and local.
Nevertheless the fact that MANY massacres have occurred throughout history and geography to many different peoples is a fact that must not be forgotten. The specific incidents must not be forgotten. One of the overriding goals of those who escape such an atrocity or who witness one and live - is to make sure as many others know about it as possible. Yes "hube1236", the word "sacrifice" does not begin to describe their suffering and what was taken from them and their friends, neighbors and families.
Jonathan tries to make the point that skirting around distasteful realities fails to get the message through that this is not merely a discussion of differing views of history and differing philosophies as many (not here) try to make it out to be. This is not merely Republican vs Democrat or Catholic vs Protestant or Vegetarian vs Carnivore. The consequences of gun control are far, far, far more serious. Unfortunately, given the blindness and narrow vision of the anti-gunners, they do not see this.
We need to use what arguments can work since the alternative is too horrible for us to let happen again - especially to those who were armed or could have been armed but were disarmed and victimized.
Nevertheless the fact that MANY massacres have occurred throughout history and geography to many different peoples is a fact that must not be forgotten. The specific incidents must not be forgotten. One of the overriding goals of those who escape such an atrocity or who witness one and live - is to make sure as many others know about it as possible. Yes "hube1236", the word "sacrifice" does not begin to describe their suffering and what was taken from them and their friends, neighbors and families.
Jonathan tries to make the point that skirting around distasteful realities fails to get the message through that this is not merely a discussion of differing views of history and differing philosophies as many (not here) try to make it out to be. This is not merely Republican vs Democrat or Catholic vs Protestant or Vegetarian vs Carnivore. The consequences of gun control are far, far, far more serious. Unfortunately, given the blindness and narrow vision of the anti-gunners, they do not see this.
We need to use what arguments can work since the alternative is too horrible for us to let happen again - especially to those who were armed or could have been armed but were disarmed and victimized.
Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've read the archived thread. There is one important point that was not understood. TheBluesMan and Scott Evans came the closest came the closest to explaining it. To put it more succinctly...[/quote]
Solitar,
I thought I nailed it …
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“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
Solitar,
I thought I nailed it …
------------------
“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
I think that if we can ues this image to preserve liberty and ensure that nothing like that ever happens again - then those women would not mind.
The anti's movement has gained steam with the use of emotion - we must do likewise. Stats and facts don;t matter to most people, stark reality smacking them in the face does.
Besides, we have lost the PR war anyway - it is high time we got really nasty. No holds barred kind of thing.
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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
The anti's movement has gained steam with the use of emotion - we must do likewise. Stats and facts don;t matter to most people, stark reality smacking them in the face does.
Besides, we have lost the PR war anyway - it is high time we got really nasty. No holds barred kind of thing.
------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CassidyGT: ... Stats and facts don;t matter to most people, stark reality smacking them in the face does.
Besides, we have lost the PR war anyway - it is high time we got really nasty. No holds barred kind of thing.[/quote]Remember when the then president of the NRA made some negative comments with regard to something that our government did and George Bush announced that he was cancelling his life membership with the NRA? And close to half a million (maybe more) members didn't renew their membership. Well, "getting really nasty" is going to divide us the same way with less people to carry the load.
Although the images are pure and unfiltered truth, getting "smacked in the face" with a photo that might contain the image of an Aunt, a Grandmother or a distant cousin is a little bit too "nasty" for my taste and I no longer see myself visiting this "Legal and Political" forum on TFL. It got along well without me before I found it and it will get along fine without me in the future.
[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 20, 2000).]
Besides, we have lost the PR war anyway - it is high time we got really nasty. No holds barred kind of thing.[/quote]Remember when the then president of the NRA made some negative comments with regard to something that our government did and George Bush announced that he was cancelling his life membership with the NRA? And close to half a million (maybe more) members didn't renew their membership. Well, "getting really nasty" is going to divide us the same way with less people to carry the load.
Although the images are pure and unfiltered truth, getting "smacked in the face" with a photo that might contain the image of an Aunt, a Grandmother or a distant cousin is a little bit too "nasty" for my taste and I no longer see myself visiting this "Legal and Political" forum on TFL. It got along well without me before I found it and it will get along fine without me in the future.
[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 20, 2000).]
I thought NRA membership fell because they failed in preventing gun laws from being passed - I thought it was the Assault Weapons Ban. Could be mistaken though. Not that it matters.
If you think we have any hope of winning the 'PR War' in this matter - you are woefully naive. The time to be gentle and nice is gone - it has gotten us where we are today. That is - in the proverbial toilet.
As for you leaving TFL - BYE!
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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
If you think we have any hope of winning the 'PR War' in this matter - you are woefully naive. The time to be gentle and nice is gone - it has gotten us where we are today. That is - in the proverbial toilet.
As for you leaving TFL - BYE!
------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
I think FUD was referring to staying out of L&P sub-forum. He's valued here and I, for one, wouldn't want to see him leave. I also see no problem with him avoiding L&P...I tend to stay out of "Competition" forum as it holds no interest for me and certainly understand FUD's reasoning.
It's a shame to see this conversation degenerating. I personally think it's a powerful image. However, I'm biased. What about showing the image to moderate anti's or the non-committed to gauge reaction? I could also see JFPO using this image effectively, if they wanted to.
Dick
Dick
I have to admit. When ever I talk to an anti, I become angry. Emotion overwhelms me and I find it hard to be diplomatic. I don't think I am the only one. If we are to win the battle for hearts and minds, we have to use the advantages that we have. Like truth, the facts and the righteousness of our cause in history. The antis are lying but have unrestricted access to the media. The angry gun owner frequently comes off like a crazy person and only adds credence to their cause.
I would suggest that we as gun owners be proud of what are and attack "political correctness" or the "cultural war". We can differentiate ourselves with the antis and people can judge us for what we really are. We are good people and others have to know that. The antis are liars and pc mongers and other people have to know that to. but it can be said in more than one way.
I would suggest that we as gun owners be proud of what are and attack "political correctness" or the "cultural war". We can differentiate ourselves with the antis and people can judge us for what we really are. We are good people and others have to know that. The antis are liars and pc mongers and other people have to know that to. but it can be said in more than one way.
i'm fairly new here so maybe i dont have a right to say anything but i've been lurking around here for a couple of months and i agree with oleg that fud seems to be an alright sort of guy. i dont know what his background is but if he is bothered by this for some reason than maybe other gun owners will be as well.
Jonathan Chenault
New member
what FUD said about rosie odonnel and company is true. but that is the way society is now and its a shame. they dont think logically.hardly anyone does. if playing peoples emotions opens their eyes then so be it...
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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
Phil 4:13
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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
Phil 4:13
I think FUD is a good guy - all I was saying was that if he didn't want to come to L&P
(I meant L&P - not TFL) - well that is his affair.
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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
[This message has been edited by CassidyGT (edited June 21, 2000).]
(I meant L&P - not TFL) - well that is his affair.
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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
[This message has been edited by CassidyGT (edited June 21, 2000).]