1923 DWM COMMERCIAL LUGER $950 should i buy?
- Thread starter jsust
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mapsjanhere
New member
If all the numbers are matching and there's decent finish left it's a good price. If the numbers are mismatched and it's refinished it's too high.
I'm by no means a Luger expert, but I do have the Standard Catalog of Luger (Davis 2006), and I can find no listing for a DWM 1923 Commercial model.
Guns listed as 1923 models are the "safe & loaded" (rare, 7,000 made), the 1923 Stoeger American Eagle (very rare less than 1,000 made), the 1923 Stoeger "safe & loaded" (included in the American Eagle number), the 1923 Finnish Military contract, (approx. 6,500 made) and the 1923 Swedish contract (less than 1,000 made).
I can not find anything that precisely matches the specs in the linked picture.
If the gun is a 1920 Commercial model (which just happens to be dated 1923) it is a very common gun, and in VG condition was listed at $1,000 and good at $650 (2006 prices).
$950 in today's dollars for an all matching number, original finish good or better, Luger is a very good deal. If the gun has been refinished, and/or does not have ALL matching numbers, its only a fair deal, in my opinion.
Better answers on current value can be found with the Luger experts on Luger collector web sites.
I bought a reblued, mismatched 1936 gun (which looks brand new) for $750, but that was over 5 years ago. At the shows, "shooter" Lugers are around $1,000 currently (which is high), but, it's a seller's market. (and they tend to hang around at those prices,
)
Good luck!
Guns listed as 1923 models are the "safe & loaded" (rare, 7,000 made), the 1923 Stoeger American Eagle (very rare less than 1,000 made), the 1923 Stoeger "safe & loaded" (included in the American Eagle number), the 1923 Finnish Military contract, (approx. 6,500 made) and the 1923 Swedish contract (less than 1,000 made).
I can not find anything that precisely matches the specs in the linked picture.
If the gun is a 1920 Commercial model (which just happens to be dated 1923) it is a very common gun, and in VG condition was listed at $1,000 and good at $650 (2006 prices).
$950 in today's dollars for an all matching number, original finish good or better, Luger is a very good deal. If the gun has been refinished, and/or does not have ALL matching numbers, its only a fair deal, in my opinion.
Better answers on current value can be found with the Luger experts on Luger collector web sites.
I bought a reblued, mismatched 1936 gun (which looks brand new) for $750, but that was over 5 years ago. At the shows, "shooter" Lugers are around $1,000 currently (which is high), but, it's a seller's market. (and they tend to hang around at those prices,
)Good luck!
JT-AR-MG42
New member
No expert either.
Photo you post (I cannot enlarge them) shows stocks that do not seem to be original.
At least the lines? that look to be either a start on a re-checkering job or a
form of skip-line checkering.
Not original IMHO.
Also, I would have expected to see a stamped/wood bottom magazine with it rather than the later
WW II milled/aluminum base magazine shown.
Guess I would have to yard it apart to go number hunting
(and want to mess with a 'shooter' in .30 cal.)
before spending my dough on that one, but that's just me.
You probably already checked, but ammo is relatively spendy (like 25 bucks a box).
If you are figuring to be re-loading for it,
bullets and cases are not regularly stocked items at most stores.
Good luck with your decision,
JT
Photo you post (I cannot enlarge them) shows stocks that do not seem to be original.
At least the lines? that look to be either a start on a re-checkering job or a
form of skip-line checkering.
Not original IMHO.
Also, I would have expected to see a stamped/wood bottom magazine with it rather than the later
WW II milled/aluminum base magazine shown.
Guess I would have to yard it apart to go number hunting
(and want to mess with a 'shooter' in .30 cal.)
before spending my dough on that one, but that's just me.
You probably already checked, but ammo is relatively spendy (like 25 bucks a box).
If you are figuring to be re-loading for it,
bullets and cases are not regularly stocked items at most stores.
Good luck with your decision,
JT
The gun Kenyon and others call the "1923 Commercial" was made by DWM for commercial sale in Germany and foreign markets, mainly the U.S. Some intended for the U.S. market have the "SAFE" and "LOADED" markings in English, rather than in German; those bring a premium.
All are 7.65 Parabellum caliber (not 7.65 Browning, a much smaller cartridge) because German arms makers were prohibited in that period from making guns in the 9mm military caliber.
Proof marks are standard commercial and serial numbers run five digits in the 73500-96000 range and are in the standard commercial locations. The chamber top is unmarked; the DWM trademark is on the toggle.
Unlike the "1920 Commercial" guns many of which were reworked military pistols, the "1923 Commercials" seem to be newly made.
The original magazine would be the folded sheet metal with a wood bottom piece. The grips appear to be either home made or worked on.
Jim
All are 7.65 Parabellum caliber (not 7.65 Browning, a much smaller cartridge) because German arms makers were prohibited in that period from making guns in the 9mm military caliber.
Proof marks are standard commercial and serial numbers run five digits in the 73500-96000 range and are in the standard commercial locations. The chamber top is unmarked; the DWM trademark is on the toggle.
Unlike the "1920 Commercial" guns many of which were reworked military pistols, the "1923 Commercials" seem to be newly made.
The original magazine would be the folded sheet metal with a wood bottom piece. The grips appear to be either home made or worked on.
Jim
I handload for my '20, and while it's a real hassle compared to loading a straight-walled round, it's better than paying a dollar a round, or whatever loaded ammo costs.
You really need only one source, one time, for brass. Finding bullets of the correct .309"-.310" diameter is more problematic. I've pushed .311"-.312" bullets through a .309" sizer with excellent results.
You really need only one source, one time, for brass. Finding bullets of the correct .309"-.310" diameter is more problematic. I've pushed .311"-.312" bullets through a .309" sizer with excellent results.
spacecoast
New member
Aside from the "Safe and Loaded" guns mentioned by James K and 44 Amp (one correction, there were ~ 2,000 made, current documented serial# range 89,734 to 91,511), the "Alphabet" 1920s Commercial Lugers numbered about 100,000 and were made from ~1920 to about 1928. They have suffix letters visible on the front of the frame starting with "i" running up through about "r". You could infer production in 1923 with about a "m" suffix or so.
The gun pictured above (not very well) does appear to have grip issues. If it's a common 1920s Commercial, all matching and correct, it's probably a $1000 gun. Before buying a Luger, I recommend you join the Luger forums (luger.gunboards.com and lugerforum.com) and draw on the wealth of knowledge available. There are good tutorials at each site that will verse you in the basics of Luger variations and where to look for the serial numbers, full and partial. The commercials didn't have as many locations to examine. Note - if you would like to shoot it, .30 cal ammo is expensive and not that easy to find. Even brass and bullets are in fairly short supply.
A serial number would really help nail down what this is and what it might be worth as a first Luger.
Here are a couple of post-WWI Commercial Lugers in .30 cal:
~1921 commercial #9377k. This one shoots very nicely.
1923 Safe and Loaded #89934,
The gun pictured above (not very well) does appear to have grip issues. If it's a common 1920s Commercial, all matching and correct, it's probably a $1000 gun. Before buying a Luger, I recommend you join the Luger forums (luger.gunboards.com and lugerforum.com) and draw on the wealth of knowledge available. There are good tutorials at each site that will verse you in the basics of Luger variations and where to look for the serial numbers, full and partial. The commercials didn't have as many locations to examine. Note - if you would like to shoot it, .30 cal ammo is expensive and not that easy to find. Even brass and bullets are in fairly short supply.
A serial number would really help nail down what this is and what it might be worth as a first Luger.
Here are a couple of post-WWI Commercial Lugers in .30 cal:
~1921 commercial #9377k. This one shoots very nicely.
1923 Safe and Loaded #89934,
As has already been stated, Lugers produced during this period were required to be in 7.65 Parabellum. In addition to that barrels had to be shorter as is the case with this gun at 3 5/8".
Would I buy this gun? Kind of hard to know from the photos. But, in general, if it was to be my only Luger I'd probably pass. I would want a more standard one with a standard length barrel and in 9mm. If I was planning on owning a number of Lugers I might grab it as it isn't all that common of a gun. But, either way, it would require a full inspection and one needs to know what they are looking for. They also need to know what they want, a shooter or a collector's gun. Either way, these days $950 is pretty much entry level except for basket cases.
Would I buy this gun? Kind of hard to know from the photos. But, in general, if it was to be my only Luger I'd probably pass. I would want a more standard one with a standard length barrel and in 9mm. If I was planning on owning a number of Lugers I might grab it as it isn't all that common of a gun. But, either way, it would require a full inspection and one needs to know what they are looking for. They also need to know what they want, a shooter or a collector's gun. Either way, these days $950 is pretty much entry level except for basket cases.
First, the 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger) is not a straight case, it is tapered.
Second, to get proper tension on the bullet, you have to resize the 9mm also, though you usually will not have to trim.
The .30 Luger is pretty easy to reload. Unless the loads are quite hot, the cases will not stretch enough to require trimming.
Jim
Second, to get proper tension on the bullet, you have to resize the 9mm also, though you usually will not have to trim.
The .30 Luger is pretty easy to reload. Unless the loads are quite hot, the cases will not stretch enough to require trimming.
Jim
Assuming you have carbide dies, and you are including the flaring of the case mouth as part of "load".
I load a number of bottleneck cases. And several strait cases, and those called "strait" but that are actually tapered.
And while I don't load for .30 Luger, I don't see it being any different than any other bottlenecked case.
If you have to trim (and deburr) every time, you aren't doing something right. CHECK length every time, sure. Trim only when needed.
Yes, straight cases are so much easier, that's why the die sets have 3 (or 4) dies, instead of the 2 used for bottleneck cases.
Yes, its a shooter, reblued (I was told it was done by the factory during the war - riiiiigt..
), sideplate is mismatched, mag is replacement. Note all the straw color has been blued...and the grips..well..yeah..
But isn't it pretty???
in fact, that's what my wife said, as I came out of the show where I got it.
"what did you get, this time?" frowns, taps foot...
I open the box and show her..
"ohh, PRETTY!"
I was thinking about a grand. Seems like you can't hardly find Lugers (including very poor ones) for much less these days.
), sideplate is mismatched, mag is replacement. Note all the straw color has been blued...and the grips..well..yeah..But isn't it pretty???
in fact, that's what my wife said, as I came out of the show where I got it.
"what did you get, this time?" frowns, taps foot...
I open the box and show her..
"ohh, PRETTY!"
I was thinking about a grand. Seems like you can't hardly find Lugers (including very poor ones) for much less these days.
crazy charlie
New member
Way too much $.
Just saw a shooter grade 9mm, engraved, re-blued go for $650. It was a good looking pistol, re-blue done nicely.
I'd follow the suggestions other posters have given and keep looking.
Just saw a shooter grade 9mm, engraved, re-blued go for $650. It was a good looking pistol, re-blue done nicely.
I'd follow the suggestions other posters have given and keep looking.
One gun, right? reblued, and engraved? Somebody loved that gun. One shop I know had a beautiful AC43 P-38 with a matching, original correct holster. It was on consignment, and the asking price was $900.
The only problem was that while it was a decent price for a top quality specimen with all the correct accessories, the gun in the shop had, at some time, been professionally nickel plated. It was a very good job, and 100% intact, but....that rig wasn't worth near that much nickled.
There are still deals out there, a gun here, another there. If you are patient, and shop around a lot, you can still find them. But you won't find many.
Another shop I know had a .30 American Eagle, no finish left at all, hardly, and they wanted $1300! The people who know what Lugers are worth are hugely outnumbered by the people who think they know what Lugers are worth!
The problem is that Luger prices are all over the lot, which is why I don't really like to give a value on them. And of course, any value I do give, like the BB value and others) is retail, what a dealer might sell the gun for, not what one can get out of it from a dealer.
IMHO, that $650 is pretty low, even for a shooter grade; near junkers bring more than that around here. Of course engraving, in most cases, lessens the value, as do plating, rebluing, mismatched parts, Franzite and similar grips, and damage due to "repair" attempts. It is hard for folks today to realize that after WWII, a Luger would sell for around $10, maybe $12 with a belt and holster. (P.38's were $5.) $10 then was equivalent to maybe $350 today, so Lugers beat the inflation curve. Sure makes one wish for a time machine!
Jim
IMHO, that $650 is pretty low, even for a shooter grade; near junkers bring more than that around here. Of course engraving, in most cases, lessens the value, as do plating, rebluing, mismatched parts, Franzite and similar grips, and damage due to "repair" attempts. It is hard for folks today to realize that after WWII, a Luger would sell for around $10, maybe $12 with a belt and holster. (P.38's were $5.) $10 then was equivalent to maybe $350 today, so Lugers beat the inflation curve. Sure makes one wish for a time machine!
Jim