1917 Enfield rebuild

[WayneinMaine]

I really need your help and expertise on 2 topics. First I have a 1917 Enfield (Eddystone) which i have held in reserve for years as I got it for $100. I had some concerns bout the headspace as the bolt body is a Remington or Winchester, I don't remember which, but certainly not the original. I have fired it about 10 times with no noticeable problems with the cases. I took it to a gunsmith and he reported excessive headspace. Here are my options as I see them, in order of increased perceived cost. 1. fire form a lot of strong military brass rounds then neck size them only for use in this one rifle (could be dangerous I have other .30-06s)? 2. Rechamber in .300 win magnum, or other potent .30 caliber. 3. The bore looks real good, I could have him turn the barrel down and reinsert it and re-chamber it in .30-06. 4. I could have him turn it down a lot more, thread it back in, and rechamber it into .308 and build a Cooperesque scout rifle, .308 would allow me to cut the barrel down to about 20" or "22 with minimal loss of velocity albeit with a longer action. I'm sure some of you have done it before. Thoughts? Ideas?

Second I recently purchased a beautiful ( I always get nervous when buying a pretty gun) 1917 Enfield, also an Eddystone, which was "completely sporterized. The barrel is cut down to 22", the receiver is drilled and tapped for a scope with the pesky rear sight hole professionally filled, welded in, and re-blued very nicely. My issue is I don't care what a gun looks like so long as it shoots well and functions well. This one doesn't. I got 6" groups rested at 30 yards even though the bore and muzzle looked good. The action rattled around in the stock like a BB in a boxcar, so bad it split the stock after about 8 shots. Would that be the sole culprit for accuracy that bad? It doesn't extract, someone ground the extractor down so it doesn't hit the case heads at all-this alone is a minor problem. It appears someone ground on the bolt lugs and this really creeps me out. I have $250 into the gun and can return it for credit. Should I bed the stock, try some things, or take it back ASAP? Marlin's new rifles cost about $3oo and I hear they shoot sub minute of angle out of the box....

 

[DnPRK]

For the original Enfield...Was headspace checked with a "Field" gauge. If it wasn't, then your "gunsmith" doesn't know what he's doing.

A field gauge is used to check headspace after the rifle has been in the field for a while. That is why its called a field gauge.

 

[kraigwy]

Eddystone was a subsidary of Remington. It's not uncommon to find Remington Parts on Eddystone rifles. (mine has one).

I'd question the "excessive" headspace bit. Take one of your fired cases and run it through a case gage to see really how much headspace you have.

The extractor of the Endfield is big enough to hold the case to the face of the bolt so unless its really excessive it wont hurt nothing.

To get an ideal what I'm talking about, I ran a sniper school where the students were using boty the M1C/D and M21. Bunch of idiots weren't paying attention and fires 308 cases out of the Garands. The extractor held the cases and the only thing the suffered was accuracy.

So I'd leave the first Eddystone alone, unless checking the fired cases show something really out of wack.

Just for info, the 1917 Enfield is one of the strongest actions ever made.

As to the second gun. Personally if the ears are still on it, I'd try to restore in to military specs. If the ears are gone, then you have a sporter.

Sure like to see pictures of both guns.

 

[RC20]

The military guns tended to large chambers to allow functioning in the mud and grit of battle. Unless the smith is an Enfield expert, what looks excessive to him may be just fine.

Getting reports that even if it closes on a field gage, as long as it just closes its ok (take that with a grain of salt, it has to be checked factually for the Enfield)

Second Gun: If that much is hosed up send it back. That is just plain nuts. Pushing things way over the limit of sane or toleration.

 

[jrothWA]

Let's start from the beginning..

first, on the as-is Enfield with headspace, are there any markings on the barrel top surface behind the front sight? What are they? [HS, JA, RA, W, or E]

If the marking is JA, take a magnifying lens and looking @ the front of the receiver as SOME when rebarreled MAY have cracked during rebarreling.
Even better if someone you know, knows how to do "non-destructive testing".

Mixed parts are common after arsenal rebuilding, but have a better smith look at the headspace with all gages. [GO, Nogo, & Field]

The second one maybe able to magnumized but deal with asmith that has done this type of work. The action can handled it but remember its also 90+ years old.

Post some photo, for more review.

 

[hornetguy]

If you are determined to modify the action, I'd be thinking about a bigger cartridge... it would be a shame to waste that nice, long action on a short cartridge.
I would be thinking something like a .375 H&H, and get a modern short action for the .308.

... but that's just me

edit: Second gun..... return it for credit ASAP.

 

[WayneinMaine]

Field gauge

Is the field gauge larger than the no go gauge? In hindsight I wish I'd have bought a bought a case gauge and checked it myself. The first Eddy has been semi-sporterized with the ears ground off. The only reason I was thinking of a larger re-chamber is a .300 win mag would fit the action length and there's enough room to ream that chamber without changing much else? If I go with a .375 I'd have to rebarrel/rebore.

 

[JASmith]

Going the opposite direction of the .375 H&H, my Uncle converted his 1917 to .264 Winchester Magnum and harvested a lot of Elk and deer with it.

If were me, however, and you determine that the rifle works OK in 30-06, I would ask myself whether going away from such a fine and flexible cartridge is worth the bother.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Is the field gauge larger than the no go gauge? In hindsight I wish I'd have bought a bought a case gauge and checked it myself.

Yes, a field gauge is longer than a no-go gauge.

Odds are your gunsmith cheeked head space with a no-go gauge for legal liability reasons.

Before you condemn the rifle you need to check with a "military" field gauge.

The Clymer brand of head space gauges are the same spec as the military gauges. The Foster brand are shorter. You can find more info on the difference at the CMP forum.

You have fired ten rounds and the cases look fine then I would think you are OK. Being one or two thousandth of an inch over the field spec well not cause a problem, just extra stretch of the brass case and fewer reloads.

The vast majority of 1917's were rebuilt at some point in their lives and armorers made no attempt to keep the same letter-coded parts on a particular rifle. Don't be surprised to find R and/or W marked parts on your Eddiestone.

My Eddiestone was rebuilt at San Antonio in the 1940's where it received a Johnson Automatics barrel. I'm lucky this particular rifle went back together with all E parts with the exception of the nose cap and front sight.

 

[chiefr]

IMHO, I would not sporterize any Eddystone or an 1903 Springfield that is in original condition despite minor headspce issues. There are plenty of sporters for sale at low prices.
If you are looking to find one in original unaltered condition, you will notice prices start at an average of $700. Beside price, unaltered Eddystones are hard to find in comparison to sporterized ones.
You can buy sporterized rifles for around $350. The last gunshow I visited had only 2 unaltered Eddystones and they were in good condition with good bores from 2 different dealers. They were for sale for $750 and the dealers would not haggle.
In contrast, at the same show, I must have seen a dozen or more sporterized 03A3s and Eddystones; the average price was around #350.

 

[highpower3006]

I would just like to reiterate that the headspace needs to be checked with a field gauge. Chances are that it is fine If you have fired rounds through it and have had no head separations.

As has been stated, The M1917/P14 Enfield actions are among the strongest out there and can handle some strong loads although personally I would try and leave it in it's original chambering.

Gratuitous M1917 pictures:

 

[chiefr]

Highpower 3006. That is a beautiful & complete rifle. Like I mentioned in my first post, unaltered 1917s are hard to find these days. I could never sporterize one.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Long ago in a distant world I worked at SARCO building up Pattern 17 Enfields from barrelled actions, using bins of parts to complete rifles for sale. I built up about 200 of them, at a rate of about 10 a day.

If I remember correctly, bearing in mind that this was almost 30 years ago, we had a large selection of bolts and setting headspace was done by using a field gauge and then "mixing and matching" bolts into rifles until they passed the gauge. Not exactly scientific, but then again this was SARCO at probably the low spot... before any product liability concerns.

Any idea if this might be one of those rifles?


Willie

.

 

[WayneinMaine]

Pics

OK first thanks for the pics of the Enfield in original condition. Let me make it clear any Enfield that I'm altering, are already altered, I would not destroy an original. I am putting in photos of 2 Eddys The dark stocked one with the original peep is my first Eddy, we'll call it Eddy 1, my workhorse, Soon after I bought it the action started working its way back through the stock. I got some Acraglas bedding and floated the barrel while bedding the stock. It shoots very well, and I've shot the heads off of dozens of partridge with it. Aim at the top of the head and hit it in the neck at about 10 yards. Shots have to be made carefully since the bullet's going to keep on truckin'. Anyway this was my first gunsmithing experience and I drilled and tapped out the trigger guard/action screws to 1/4 x 28 and hand altered some machine screws for it. The originals were stripped and bent from the action moving. This was before many of these things were available online. I bought a set of 5 front sights (years after I'd been shooting it) ordered them according to height and got a 100 yard zero.
The Eddy with the questionable headspace, Eddy #2 is at the gunsmiths and he has already removed the barrel. I'm out $100 for the headspacing check and inspection. He's saying $150 more to turn the barrel back a thread, reinstall and re-chamber in .30-06. Not sure there is a military spec chamber reamer, and if there is it'll probably give me what I already have, based on what I've heard here. He wants $35-40 to true the bolt face and $50-75 to lap the bolt lugs. I haven't asked about squaring the receiver face. I figure while it's apart, maybe make it a real shooter-which begs the question is the original barrel accurate enough to benefit from this other accurizing stuff. I can get a new criterion barrel for $200 in .308 or .30-06 short chambered and inletted for the extractor and stuff. Chances are I can get the jigs/reamer/supplies and true the bolt face, lap the lugs, and install the short chambered barrel for close to what he's going to charge me, and I keep the stuff. I've been leaning towards pursuing an FFL and starting a sporting goods store, there's one locally that doesn't carry reloading or gunsmithing supplies, is overpriced, etc. I rely on friends passing by Kittery (400 miles south) to get things like choke tubes, black powder, and reloading supplies. I can't buy shot for shotgun reloading anywhere in the STATE! The gunsmith in question is almost 300 miles south of here, the only one I know locally butchered a scope mounting job and I've never been back. The original problem with this eddy still exists, and that is there is no sighting system. The rear hole needs to be filled in, and suitable holes drilled and tapped for scope mounts. If I'm going to completely rebuild a rifle, it's Eddy #3 that needs it.
The more sporterized eddy (Eddy #3) with the bobbed 22" barrel is the non-shooter. On closer inspection, the bolt lug I thought was ground upon is just rusted/pitted, and I seriously doubt it contacts anything at all. The other lug is shiny on the outside edge and appears to be making decent contact. The ejector (?) spring does not appear to be working I can move the ejector into the bolt face area where it should be, but it won't go there on its own. I'm not crazy about the crown of the muzzle but at 22" it already too short for a .30-06. The bolt face is a bit rough and the firing pin as as off center as I've seen, although it does do the job. The action is rapidly retreating through the stock and that has to be fixed. So- the extractor I can fix, I can bed the stock, even lap the crown. The bolt lugs should be lapped and it wouldn't hurt to true the bolt face. If I'm going to re-barrel something, maybe this is the one?

I know this has run long, lots of things to consider. It would be very helpful if someone could tell me what the threading is on the Eddystone receiver, is it the same as something like the Remington 700?

 

[WayneinMaine]

Rest of the pics

I don't post here often so didn't know about the pic limit, got timed out etc., so things are pretty scrambled. Here are the remaining pics. Any of you who are gunsmiths who have tips for someone starting out, equipment should/must have etc., would be great to know. I'm fairly handy, I don't have any machine shop experience but can learn.