1911 safeties

T

TimC

New member
A discussion started on a prior thread regarding which safety came first on the 1911 (the thread which at idiot started on carrying hammer down). Jorah Lavin commented on the thumb safety being incorporated into the 1911 first...and I I did see the reference you quoted. However, I looked up in the opening paragraphs of the TM 9-1005-211-34, which states that the grip safety was added in 1908 followed by the thumb safety in 1910. I wonder which one is correct? (not that it really matters that much) It's just an interesting discussion to me.
 
The 1911 has been produced from the start with both the grip and thumb safetys so one did not come before the other
 
My understanding is that Mr. Browning designed the pistol with the grip safety, which was (and is) ingenious. Then the military insisted on the addition of the thumb safety.
 
Specifications for the 1911 include both grip safety and manual safety. So the 1911 has always had both. The 1911 is the son of the 1905 which was altered down through the years untill being reborn as the 1911 per Army specs.

Sam
 
Okay...if one gets technical, you're right about the "1911" always having both safeties. What I meant was which safety came first as the pistol which became the 1911 was being developed. Tough crowd around here. :D Reminds me of my co-workers.
 
There are 2 safieties on the 1911. The Grip Safety and, the Thumb Safety.

If you are going to carry the 45 cocked and locked the best safety is the STRAP that keeps the hammer from falling.
 
Ok, one more time: The original specifications set by the military for the new US pistol required an automatic safety that would be off safe while in hand and on safe while the pistol was in the holster or otherwise not being held. This safety was to be activated with no extra effort by the shooter, hence the grip safety. It was during the testing by the Cavalry (the main users of the new pistol) that it was decided that a thumb safety was needed. If you can find photographs of the Colt/Browning M1910 you will see what appears to be a 1911 but it lacks the thumb safety and the frame cuts that would allow one to be fitted. There is no notch in the slide either.

So, one would be correct in stating that the M1911 has two mechanical safeties, thumb and grip, but during much of the development of the pistol there was only the grip safety.
 
Jim V., if you are ever here in NC,

can I buy you a nice dinner? Or invite you over to the house for a good home-cooked meal?

Seriously...


IMHO, you always bring a lot of clarity to these chats, and I appreciate it.

-J.
 
"One more time"? Didn't mean to annoy anyone with a question (of which I already knew the answer) to clarify matters.
 
Jim is right on. I've seen a 1910. There is one at the Browning museum in Ogden Utah. (Great place if you are ever out this way). No thumb safety. No cut for one.

However, there is another prototype there that is very interesting. I do not know the model number off of it. It looks like a 1911, it has a thumb safety, but it is a concealed hammer, like on Browning's earlier pocket pistols. And it has no barrel bushing. Very interesting.

It has been awhile since I've been to the museum, I think I need to take another trip. :)
 
Only tow safeties?

Let's see now,
1) Disconnector-to make sure that the slide is in battery.
2) Thumb
3) Grip
4a) Half Cock notch-on Series 70 & earlier
4b) Firing Pin Block-on Series 80 & Kimber Series II

I think I forgot one.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
Jim V is 100% correct an obviously a fan of history, especially 1911 history. I would like to add a useless, historical tidbit to his explaination. The U.S. Army after requesting the thumb saftey didn't even use it correctly. That's right, they trained their soldiers to carry their pistols hammer down, unloaded on an empty chamber. :eek:
 
Bullett et al, the original idea for the military was to carry the new pistol in what we might call condition 0, loaded chamber and the psitol cocked. The test pistols were carried that way until the thumb safety was added. After the thumb safety was added the military still carried the pistols in condition 1. The influx of young men that had little or no firearms training resulted in changing the carry mode to hammer down on an empty chamber.

I think that the cavalry found that using a semi-autopistol on horse back was a lot different than using a single action revolver on horse back. With the revolver only 1 bang if the horse got jumpy whereas with the semi-auto there could be 8 bangs.
 
We carried the 1911 with the chamber empty and half cocked..It was easy to rack the slide that way..And yes I was in the CAVALRY in the 40s..But maybe they had a lot of missfires or something the way they were carrying them before the 40s... They must have shot all the horses by accident..There weren't any in my Company.. "5th CAV" F Troop..:)
 
Wishbone, The change from Condition 0 and then Condition 1 to Condition 3 (or your carry) came about in late 1912 or early 1913. I think the change was due to AD's and ND's both on and off horse back.

"Sabers, Charge!!!!"
 
Wishbone,

Thank you for your service to our country! I appreciate the insight you and Jim are providing to us young fellows.
 
Just for a little more historical perspective we can look at some of JMB's designs that predated the M1911, and even predated the prototypical M1905. For example, the Colt's Pocket Hammerless (aka M1903, aka Type "M") had both a thumb safety and a grip safety in its earliest ("Type I") variant. So, as early as 1903 Browning had a commercial pistol using both grip and thumb safeties.

For a nice series of pics on the evolution of the M1911, starting with the M1905, check out:

http://mcp.cpu.lu/handguns/document/the45/the45.htm
 
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