1911 safeties

2

2ndsojourn

New member
From another thread:
"Your 1911 has one manual safety and one passive safety (grip safety)."

During my time in the military, I was issued a 1911 sidearm as the grenadier on my fire team and gunner on a mortar squad. I remember being taught that the 1911 had three safeties; the manual safety, the grip safety and the half-cock 'safety'.

Is the half-cock notch a safety or not, and if not, why not?

Edit: Also, other handguns also have a half-cock notch (ie: Beretta 92 & similar models). Is the half cock notch in the same category for them as well?
 
The half-cock is a safety, but it's not a "safety position", so it's much more like the inertia firing pin (fourth safety?) than the thumb safety.

The half-cock does prevent the hammer from dropping if used as a safety position,, but in the process you lose two other safeties; the hammer is protected from a blow at full-cock by the grip safety, and you lose the inertia firing pin "safety" because if the hammer does suffer a blow, it has a running start at the firing pin from half-cock.
 
Keep in mind, too, that not all 1911s are created equal. Many current production 1911s add a firing pin safety. On Colts and at least some Para-Ordnance pistols with the firing pin safety, the half-cock position no longer has a hook to capture the seat tip, so it's a stop but not a positive retention device.

In theory the hammer dropping from the half-cock position shouldn't have enough force to light off a primer, but there's theory -- and then there's the real world.
 
The firing pin block (aka firing pin safety) is intended to prevent the gun from firing if it is dropped some distance on a hard surface muzzle down. When that happens, the firing pin will build up enough energy during the drop that when the gun stops moving, firing pin will continue to move with enough force tor fire a chambered round. In the original design, that is independent of the position of the hammer and whether the manual safety is engaged.

There are two common solutions: One is to provide a mechanism to block the movement of the firing pin unless the trigger and/or grip safety is held in; the second is to make the firing pin so light that it will not gain enough energy to fire a primer no matter how far the gun falls.

Jim
 
I have the Ruger SR1911, which uses the second. A lightweight titanium firing pin that will not gain enough inertia to fire a round if dropped.
 
Half cock

I remember an armorer from back when I was in the Army do a demonstration.

He loaded a round in the 1911, placed it half cock position and threw it across the room. Nothing happened. From that day On I was a believer.
 
Back in the 70's it was common for deputies to carry 1911's in condition 2. A guy I know was making out with a girl at a drive-in with his Commander in his waistband, Mexican style. From what he can tell the hammer was pulled back from the half-cock position, fell, and the gun went off. The bullet went through the seat of his Plymouth, and hit the drive shaft hard enough to leave a dent in it.

He says the cars around him all started up and drove away. He tried to play it cool and drive off as well, but his dented driveshaft caused the car to shake as he drove off into the dark.

Another guy I knew was on crutches, fumbling his way through a door to a business, and knocked his cocked and locked 1911 out of his waistband. It fell on it's muzzle, fired, and recoiled up high enough that he caught it.

I'm a believer in the Series 80 system, myself.
 
"I remember an armorer from back when I was in the Army do a demonstration. He loaded a round in the 1911, placed it half cock position and threw it across the room."

What a half baked demonstration. Is this the "new standard method" of infantry weapons testing? :eek:

Good thing the gun didn't discharge with the muzzle pointing at you.
 
The half cock notch is a "safety feature", not a safety. If you want to consider it a safety, then better also consider the disconnector a safety as well.
 
What a half baked demonstration. Is this the "new standard method" of infantry weapons testing?

Good thing the gun didn't discharge with the muzzle pointing at you.

His reasoning was without the grip safety depressed the weapon wasn't going to fire. (this was in 1980, Ft Bragg,NC)
 
I remember an armorer ....
Click to expand...

"Armorer" is a company level slot, and generally falls to what ever supply guy couldn't get out of the duty. And throwing a loaded pistol across the room is the act of an idiot, no matter what their rank, or supposed level of training.

I was a Direct and General support level Small Arms Repairman (75-78) MOS 45B20 and if I ever saw an "armorer" doing that, I'd have that idiot up on charges.
 
"Armorer" is a company level slot, and generally falls to what ever supply guy couldn't get out of the duty. And throwing a loaded pistol across the room is the act of an idiot, no matter what their rank, or supposed level of training.

I was a Direct and General support level Small Arms Repairman (75-78) MOS 45B20 and if I ever saw an "armorer" doing that, I'd have that idiot up on charges.
__________________

Looking back it was a stupid thing for him to do. 36 + years ago and being young it didn't phase me.

What gets me now is some of the 1911s we had...... One was a Singer and and no one wanted to carry the sewing machine........It was the brunt of many a joke when lining up to be issued a weapon for duty. (they weren't designated individually)
 
Here is what Jerry Kuhnhausen has to say about the half-cock notch:

"Half-cock notch, M1911 through Series 70 - this is only a secondary, or back-up safety. This notch would stop the hammer in the event of a "sear bounce" hammer release, preventing the firing of a chambered round."

A properly fit thumb safety when engaged should lock the sear in position in the full-cock hammer notch. A sear bounce might be most likely to occur in the event of a "slam fire" upon release of the slide on a newly inserted, loaded magazine.
 
What a half baked demonstration. Is this the "new standard method" of infantry weapons testing?
Click to expand...

A fairly common, and not rare, method of demonstration for decades. People started getting nervous about it maybe 20-25 years ago IIRC. It was not considered stupid. Maybe over the top and unnecessary, but not uncommon at all.

If a 1911 fires from the hammer falling from the half cock notch then somethings wrong with the piece. Like the firing pin spring is too light or gummed up with dirt so that it an't do it's job. Not to mention that something is wrong if it drops from the half cock without human intervention.

Browning called the half cock notch the "safety notch" or "safety position".

tipoc
 
It takes three things to make a 1911 fire. The thumb safety moved to the off position. The grip safety grasped. And the finger pressing the trigger.
 
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