1911 safe for kids (long)

R

Rommel

Inactive
I am on a 1911 bug lately since I am forced (due to financial and personal reasons) to concentrate on only one firearm. This is my home defense, range and eventually CCW piece (yeah, right in Erie County, New York). I have two young boys that have never seen any of my firearms yet (2 1/2 and 1). I used to own some revolvers and even a Pony Pocketlite. I am lucky enough to have some healthy and strong kids. I know the two year old could cock the hammer on the revolvers and pull the trigger on the Pocketlite. (Before anyone gets started, they are all stored without ammo in a large gun safe....I recently installed a Gun Vault in my bedroom for my home defense piece)Anyways, I started thinking about loaded firearms and children. When you look at most of the designs out there the 1911 seems to pull ahead in terms of safety. Assuming all guns are loaded and ready to go (round in chamber(s), cocked and locked, mag inserted)if you had a revolver, pull back the hammer or pull the trigger; Glock and similar, pull the trigger; Sig, pull the trigger; Beretta/S&W have a slight advantage with a safety; Browning Hi-Power, safety; I suppose in Browning and Smith case have the mag out silghtly to use mag safety but kinda defeats the purpose of having a ready home defense gun; this brings me to the 1911, safety and grip safety. As I mentioned, my two year old is pretty strong but he does not have big hands, I don't think it is possible for him to depress the safety with only one hand (of course two hands kinda makes this argument mute). Just rambling and wondering what everyone elses opinion was. Kinda ironic that what some people consider too dangerous a gun to carry seems to have the most safety features (safety, grip safety and even a firing pin block on Paras and Colts). Thanks for reading.

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Rommel, never underestimate the abilities of a child when it comes to figuring out something mechanical. Especially little boys. I don't have kids of my own, but when I do I'm buying a safe. I have to agree though, A 1911 in condition one is perfectly safe. I just spent the weekend in the woods in Pennsylvania and I carried my P14-45 for three days straight. Had fun shooting cans and such too! (We were on private land)

By the way, I feel your pain regarding living in Erie County, I'm in Tonawanda. My pistol permit "upgrade" was denied because 1) I hadn't had my permit long enough and 2) Inadequate reason was given. (I wrote to protect myself and my wife when out at night, walking, or downtown, etc.) When I called, they told me I needed to have been attacked or threatened before the restrictions were lifted, and I should have had my permit for at least three or four years before applying to lift the restrictions.

Also, are you a member of SCOPE? Are you going to be at the "meet the candidates night" Tuesday, September 26th at 7pm at the Elma Conservation Club? I'm going to try to make it and voice my opinion. E-mail me if you would like more information on it.

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The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.
 
[gratuitous insult deleted by Oleg Volk]

Please refer to the rules of this forum. It is not OK to insult other forum members over matters of little consequence.

Please email me at olegv@dd-b.net if you desire a further clarification (or make your own email address visible). Please consider this caution seriously.

[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited September 23, 2000).]
 
Whoa! Easy there Everest. I am not a nazi but someone with a passion for military history. For your information, Rommel was a professional soldier and not a Nazi even though he associated with them. If you would like further information about him please visit the following site as it has a nice summary on his career.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen1.htm which is dedicated to the use of tanks in warfare and profiles some excellent tank commanders such as Rommel.

I am not a Nazi, racist or white supremist but an avid historian and happen to enjoy firearms. I did not intend for my web name to offend anyone and recommend for those who think everyone who fought for Germany was a nazi to brush up on history.
 
Shadow,

One of the fundamental tenets of TFL is we all attempt to treat each other with comradely respect, although we certainly disagree over many issues. This is not a rude or impertinent board, and that's what makes it so successful. There are plenty of ill-mannered Internet venues available, if that's your preference. Rommel is a new member, and I have no particular reason to support him. However, I respectfully suggest that your post is "out-of-line", not really consistent with the our goals and policies (please see http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/Policy.html) particularly with respect to personal or acrimonious attacks.
 
I have now changed my user name to take on a more American friendly and non controversial tone. Patton, formerly Rommel, signing off!
 
Rommel,

Dont let the trolls get ya down. I have a 1911 and think it is probably the safest gun around. However nothig replaces the safety you have built in between your ears. Dont have kids, yet, but when I, or rather we , do my gun will either be in my direct control or in a vault of some sorts. You should NEVER underestimate the abilities of kids. They have unending curiosity and when needed,or chosen, unending patience. They will tinker with something until they figure it out. When they get old enough make sure you teach them safety, marksmanship and dont lie to them about not owning guns. This drives me insane. If you repeatedly tell your kids that there are no real firearms in the house and they somehow manage to find yours, what are they to assume??? Mom/Dad dont own real guns, so this must be atoy of some sorts for me to play with... My dad never locked up his guns, granted we were older than most when we moved to the US, but neither me nor my brother shot ourselves. We knew it was a real one, we knew where it was kept, we knew how to operate it... and we had a chance to handle it regularly so there was no forbidden fruit thingie.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
I would have gone R.E.LEE but maybe it's already taken! Patton definately has that Military ring to it! Good luck with your new name and welcome--- :)
 
Rommel,
As soon as I found out my wife was pregnant, I went out and bought a Stainless Government Model. Hey! Any ol' port in the storm, right?
Reason?
I wanted the safest handgun that I could afford around that I could leave around my little girl and not have to worry. I figured all I have to do is rack the slide then I'm ready for business.
My daughter is 13 years old now and she is eyeing my CZ-75.
She is an excellent gun handler.

Good luck with yours.
 
Shadow of Everest, Rommel was part of the "Generals' Plot" to kill Hitler. Because of the respect the nation had for him, he was allowed to commit suicide instead of being publicly executed in disgrace. Montgomery and Patton had high words of praise and respect for him. He was not the first man to support his country although its path was not to his liking.

Patton, I noticed that my son at age four was unable to operate the slide of a 1911, particularly with its hammer down. The 1911 is so fast to make ready, even with the magazine out, that if you have it out at a time when the "little grabbers" might sneak in to "play", keeping the pistol in its usual place and the *only* unlocked magazine in your pocket might be reasonable.

I told my son, who agreed the pistol was too big for him, that whenever he thought he was big enough, tell me and we'd go shoot. By age five or six he had his own BB gun--"MY gun!" and was not particularly interested in my guns...

If you let them help you clean the gun from time to time, you take the mystique out of it. Even let them handle it and "meddle" with it as you explain safety rules. When the lure of the unknown is absent, safety is improved.

"You can't kid-proof a gun, but you can gun-proof a kid."

FWIW, Art
 
All kids are different, when my girl was six I could trust her to leave the guns alone just because I said so. My boy is a different story. The 1911 with an empty chamber, leave the hammer down so it is harder to rack the slide, sounds like the best idea to me.

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Wayne D
NRA Life Member
 
Sounds logical to me, but I wouldn't want to test the theory. As for the rest of this thread, it reminds me of the notation that The Sportsman's Guide puts in their catalog when selling war memorabilia. It is something along the lines of the stuff being sold as war memorabilia and that they have no sympathy for naziism. Can't we all just get along? Oh, and welcome to TFL, Rommel/Patton!
 
Preserve Freedom: I understand your point. The deal is that no ONE thing will do the job. It's cumulative: Instruction, familiarity, adding physical difficulty into the equation and locks of whatever form. And, of course, it varies with the kid.

Sooner or later a kid is gonna get involved with a gun. Alone, or with idiots. Prior planning prevents p-poor performance.

You know what scares heck out of me at a deer camp? A 24-year old with his first rifle.

:), Art
 
Patton/Rommel: I don't know what your living arrangements are but remember, security starts from the outside in, i.e., the outer perimeter going inward. With items such as a security alarm (monitored or not, windows, doors, passive infrared, etc) hardened entry points (solid doors, deadbolts, two-sided keyed locks where windows are near, window locks) and possibly a dog trained to alert you, you will have much more time to ready yourself. I don't know about you, but I'm a heavy sleeper, and whereas some people can awake and function clearly from a deep sleep, my wife tells me that I'm simply "pathetic" when it comes to waking up quickly.
If you have one of the new, modern, quickly opening mini safes in your bedroom, you could keep the weapon with a round chambered and safey on if it is a single action or traditional DA. Without a safe, and children, I would probably have the magazine separate, and that would require inserting and chambering a round first.
With the security measures such as the alarm (with visible stickers, alarm box, etc.) 99% of burglars will probably simply move on to the next target without such defenses. If someones going to attempt to break into an occupied dwelling (an armed invasion, takeover robbery) you're are looking at a dangerous situation. I believe that the obvious security measures would still ward off some of these attempts but looking at your floorplan and coming up with a plan of action should this occasion arise would be adviseable.
Being able to get your firearm into action quickly is great, but what advantage is that unless you are given enough time to even get to it at all? You should be able to place the loaded magazine separately somewhere close, and be able to insert and chamber a round in enough time for what you're asking about here. If there isn't enough time for that, then you need to figure a way out that you are prewarned with enough time to get the weapon into play.
EricO
 
Greetings,

Today I walked into my computer room, where my ten year old daughter and the two sons of a friend were playing, and where my gun stuff is. The seven-year old boy had a 12 gauge shotgun in one hand and a number 8 shell in the other, a quizzical look on his face. The action of the unloaded gun was locked and it had a trigger lock on it, thank God. They hadn't been in there ten minutes. My daughter knows better and was busy using the computer, but she got a little talk about watching what her friends are up to.

Practice safety at all times.

Relieved,

Ledbetter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EricO:
I don't know about you, but I'm a heavy sleeper, and whereas some people can awake and function clearly from a deep sleep, my wife tells me that I'm simply "pathetic" when it comes to waking up quickly.
EricO[/quote]

I was glad to see you considering this factor. In another discussion, I raised this issue, and most people seemed unconcerned, "If somebody's breaking in my house, I'll wake up fast enough." I am not sure that's true for me. It depends on a lot on where I am in the sleep cycle, I think. But I know that sometimes I am very sleepy when I am awoken. It can take me ten minutes to figure out that my daughter's calling from her room on the morning my wife works. Other times, I hear her the first time she calls out. I am certainly not confident of my abilities to handle lethal force immediately after being awoken from a deep sleep. I have my own suspicion that not everyone's confidence in this matter is will placed.

One other issue that I think is of concern with regard to firearms around kids is that I don't know about your kids, but mine have friends. Even if I train my kids adequately, their friends are very likely to be untrained. On top of that, my kids do things when they're friends are around that they would never do alone.

Munir

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ahlan wa sahlan
PCV Yemen 1984-86
 
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE KIDS!

A child, once aware that the slide of a pistol can move, will put the front of the slide against a table or windowsill and push on the grip until the slide moves back. I have seen a five year old do it with a 1911 type pistol. No one told him how to do that, but he had seen his father (not me) pull back the slide and knew it moved, so he figured out how to move it with his limited strength.

(Preventing this may well be the only valid argument for a full length recoil spring guide.)

Jim
 
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