1911 Question
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John Lawson
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Safe indeed. This pistol was DESIGNED to be carried that way. In its 1905 configuration it had neither thumb safety or grip safety. The Ordnance Corps had them added in 1911. It is not a good idea to place the hammer on half cock, since it is more exposed to snags in that position. Half cock is to catch the hammer on the way down if your thumb slips. Below half cock the primer will not ignite. I have carried mine hammer down on a live round for over fifty years with no problems, and so have generations of left handed shooters.
I almost didn't post to this because I do not want to offend anyone and that isn't my intent. I couldn't leave cnemeth with the impression that the 1911 should be used this way as a normal course of events.
While a modern 1911 is fairly safe with the hammer down over a chambered round, due to the inertia firing pin, lowering the hammer over the chambered round is one of the most unsafe acts one can perform with this pistol. The chance for an unintentional discharge is tremendous and the fact that Mr. Lawson has not had one in fifty years is a testament to his care in doing this.
I wasn't around in 1905 but the 1911 is not currently designed to be carried in condition two. Either of the other two modes of carry would be preferred for bedside use with condition three being the best if there is the possibility of fumbling around due to being roused from sleep or if children are in the house.
This is posted as just my opinion but I believe it is the most commonly accepted one.
Mikey
While a modern 1911 is fairly safe with the hammer down over a chambered round, due to the inertia firing pin, lowering the hammer over the chambered round is one of the most unsafe acts one can perform with this pistol. The chance for an unintentional discharge is tremendous and the fact that Mr. Lawson has not had one in fifty years is a testament to his care in doing this.
I wasn't around in 1905 but the 1911 is not currently designed to be carried in condition two. Either of the other two modes of carry would be preferred for bedside use with condition three being the best if there is the possibility of fumbling around due to being roused from sleep or if children are in the house.
This is posted as just my opinion but I believe it is the most commonly accepted one.
Mikey
My 2 cents might be worth just that.
I keep my pistol on my nighttable with hammer down on an empty chamber. I do this on the premise that if I am not conscious enough to rack the slide, then I am not conscious enough to point a loaded gun at someone. When I carry, I prefer to have the hammer back on a live round, with the thumb safety. I'm usually conscious when I walk around
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I hate laws that make me a criminal without me even knowing it.
Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
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I keep my pistol on my nighttable with hammer down on an empty chamber. I do this on the premise that if I am not conscious enough to rack the slide, then I am not conscious enough to point a loaded gun at someone. When I carry, I prefer to have the hammer back on a live round, with the thumb safety. I'm usually conscious when I walk around
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I hate laws that make me a criminal without me even knowing it.
Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
John Lawson
New member
You came to this forum to learn something new, did'nt you? In my classes, I teach two methods of lowering the hammer on a live round. One is controlling it with the firing hand thumb and the other is gripping the hammer from the top front with the other hand's thumb and forefinger. Obviously, you practice with an unloaded pistol.
If this makes you nervous, carry it or leave it with a dry chamber or loaded and locked. In the last case, you need an ambi safety if you are left handed. If you are too old to learn a new technique, buy a Model 19 Smith and park that beside your bed.
I realize that some people... not all of them old... have arthritis and will not be able to safely lower a hammer on a live round. John Browning was old, and he could do it. An autoloader is dangerous and ready to do terrible things at the muzzle end at all times. If you doubt your ability to manipulate the hammer with a live round in the spout, don't even try; use another option. The pistol is SAFE with the hammer down. And. that's what was asked. Lowering it to that position is what could be called "condition red".
If this makes you nervous, carry it or leave it with a dry chamber or loaded and locked. In the last case, you need an ambi safety if you are left handed. If you are too old to learn a new technique, buy a Model 19 Smith and park that beside your bed.
I realize that some people... not all of them old... have arthritis and will not be able to safely lower a hammer on a live round. John Browning was old, and he could do it. An autoloader is dangerous and ready to do terrible things at the muzzle end at all times. If you doubt your ability to manipulate the hammer with a live round in the spout, don't even try; use another option. The pistol is SAFE with the hammer down. And. that's what was asked. Lowering it to that position is what could be called "condition red".
Mr. Lawson,
When I can't learn any more just dig the hole, I'll be ready for it. And you are correct, the pistol is indeed safe once the hammer is down and that was the question.
As I stated earlier, I certainly didn't intend to offend. I also teach my students to lower the hammer by grasping with thumb and index finger for added control. Everyone should know how to do it properly in case that skill is ever needed. I knew you had to be doing it quite safely to have done it for so long without a problem. I simply don't recommend it if there is another condition of carry or readiness that is suitable for the circumstance.
Like othermarc, I recommend, and usually practice, the "condition three" mode of bedside readiness. Like learning to safely lower a hammer, learning to rack the slide before putting the gun into action is a skill that takes practice but is very quick and safe. It also eliminates the need to announce to an intruder that you are armed. When he hears the unmistakable sound of a racking 45, he'll know!
As a side note, I also recommend ambi-safeties for everybody since we can all become lefties at any moment in a gunfight.
Mikey
[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited September 03, 1999).]
When I can't learn any more just dig the hole, I'll be ready for it. And you are correct, the pistol is indeed safe once the hammer is down and that was the question.
As I stated earlier, I certainly didn't intend to offend. I also teach my students to lower the hammer by grasping with thumb and index finger for added control. Everyone should know how to do it properly in case that skill is ever needed. I knew you had to be doing it quite safely to have done it for so long without a problem. I simply don't recommend it if there is another condition of carry or readiness that is suitable for the circumstance.
Like othermarc, I recommend, and usually practice, the "condition three" mode of bedside readiness. Like learning to safely lower a hammer, learning to rack the slide before putting the gun into action is a skill that takes practice but is very quick and safe. It also eliminates the need to announce to an intruder that you are armed. When he hears the unmistakable sound of a racking 45, he'll know!
As a side note, I also recommend ambi-safeties for everybody since we can all become lefties at any moment in a gunfight.
Mikey
[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited September 03, 1999).]
Ed Brunner
New member
I do not know about the safety of carrying or keeping a 1911 loaded with the hammer down .On the newer Colts there is a block on the firing pin. On the older Colts and most-maybe all-clones the firing pin is subject to inertia and there have been cases where a dropped pistol fired under these circumstances.
A much safer and faster way is to keep the 1911 loaded, hammer cocked and safety on. Releasing the safety when gripping the pistol is more natural and faster than cocking the hammer-at least to me. However, it is my understanding that John M Browning intended the 1911 to be carried loaded, with the hammer cocked and the safety off, relying completely on the grip safety.
Tape your pick. For me the fastest and safest way is cocked and locked PLUS it wont fire if it gets dropped.
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Better days to be,
Ed
A much safer and faster way is to keep the 1911 loaded, hammer cocked and safety on. Releasing the safety when gripping the pistol is more natural and faster than cocking the hammer-at least to me. However, it is my understanding that John M Browning intended the 1911 to be carried loaded, with the hammer cocked and the safety off, relying completely on the grip safety.
Tape your pick. For me the fastest and safest way is cocked and locked PLUS it wont fire if it gets dropped.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Mr. John Lawson,Mikey & Ed Brunner's opinion are all correct in saying that the 1911 model should be carried loaded with a hammer down or cocked and Locked. My opinion is, if what a person is used to do as his expertise in handling safe of his gun he should do it as there are many school of thoughts. In Philippines I sleep with my 1911 with magazine loaded only without bullet in the chamber to be hundred safety on accidental firing of any causes. If you are conciously cable you can easily rack your pistol and shoot at your intended target. If the sound will scare the intruder and ran away the better you're out of trouble. If he persist of his criminal intent, by knowing you have gun it will distract his composure also. If in the street you don't stand stationary and rack your pistol. If we own a pistol we don't only learn to use the pistol but we have other ways to have a leverage to the oponent. In contrast of my habit handling of my 1911-I carried my 9mm double action with a live round in the chamber, hammer down and locked it with the safety. It is just habit of putting the safety on and off and conciously aware always when it is needed.
John Lawson
New member
There is a video available on the Israeli method of rapid slide manipulation, since they are required to carry with a dry chamber. Safe carry and it can be fast.
In the 1905 Colt catalog they show their new .45 pistol with the hammer resting on half cock, but there is no mention of this anywhere. Obviously it is perfectly safe to lower the hammer to half cock. However, the pistol was designed to be absolutely safe when the hammer is down on a loaded round.
It is odd that nobody has been able to reproduce an accidental discharge by dropping the pistol hammer down on a live round. Loading with a primed case only, a mechanical engineer with a PHD and I tried dropping the pistol from different heights. Odd fact: Only ONCE in 1,000 drops did the pistol land directly on the muzzle. Mostly it lands on its side. The pistol would not fire unless it fell from a seventh story window and landed directly on the muzzle, with the firing pin spring made by Wolff. Now, I'd say that was safe. But, weaker springs will fire with less inertia.
Browning's last design, the Radom pistol was designed without a safety, to be carried by cavalry hammer down on a live round, since they had to hold the reigns with their other hand. They cocked the Commander style hammer by stroking it across their thigh.
If carried on half cock, it is fatally easy to snag the hammer and have a cocked pistol safety off in your holster. It is less likely to snag to full cock from a fully down position.
One of the important things an instructor does is evaluate his pupils. It is your duty to keep individuals within their parameters of competence. I'm really glad to see that you are doing this.
Most ambi safeties will loosen up in time and can cause problems. The one that I like best is King's, since it has a dovetail to keep it from loosening.
One field test is worth a million speculations. Load a primed case and try to make the pistol fire by dropping it.
In all of the cases I have investigated, the "victim" of a drop fire accident was concealing some basic facts about the situation. But, don't take my word for it, actually try the test with 1,000 drops and report the findings to this forum.
In the 1905 Colt catalog they show their new .45 pistol with the hammer resting on half cock, but there is no mention of this anywhere. Obviously it is perfectly safe to lower the hammer to half cock. However, the pistol was designed to be absolutely safe when the hammer is down on a loaded round.
It is odd that nobody has been able to reproduce an accidental discharge by dropping the pistol hammer down on a live round. Loading with a primed case only, a mechanical engineer with a PHD and I tried dropping the pistol from different heights. Odd fact: Only ONCE in 1,000 drops did the pistol land directly on the muzzle. Mostly it lands on its side. The pistol would not fire unless it fell from a seventh story window and landed directly on the muzzle, with the firing pin spring made by Wolff. Now, I'd say that was safe. But, weaker springs will fire with less inertia.
Browning's last design, the Radom pistol was designed without a safety, to be carried by cavalry hammer down on a live round, since they had to hold the reigns with their other hand. They cocked the Commander style hammer by stroking it across their thigh.
If carried on half cock, it is fatally easy to snag the hammer and have a cocked pistol safety off in your holster. It is less likely to snag to full cock from a fully down position.
One of the important things an instructor does is evaluate his pupils. It is your duty to keep individuals within their parameters of competence. I'm really glad to see that you are doing this.
Most ambi safeties will loosen up in time and can cause problems. The one that I like best is King's, since it has a dovetail to keep it from loosening.
One field test is worth a million speculations. Load a primed case and try to make the pistol fire by dropping it.
In all of the cases I have investigated, the "victim" of a drop fire accident was concealing some basic facts about the situation. But, don't take my word for it, actually try the test with 1,000 drops and report the findings to this forum.
My two cents worth.
I have to agree with Mikey. In the few tatical handgun classes I've taken I too have been instructed in the proper lowering of the hammer on a chambered round. However this would not be a safe practice for a bedside weapon due to the reasons Mikey stated. In your original question you genericaly refer to 1911 type gun. If you are operating a Colt series 80 or later weapon the chances of an AD when droped on the muzzle in condition two are slim to none due to the firing pin safety. However, IMHO, the possibility of an AD is possible with other 1911's. As an exapmle I would like to point out Springfield Armory's decision to use a titanium firing pin in place of steel in order to pass certain drop tests in the testing of the F.B.I. pistol.
I have to agree with Mikey. In the few tatical handgun classes I've taken I too have been instructed in the proper lowering of the hammer on a chambered round. However this would not be a safe practice for a bedside weapon due to the reasons Mikey stated. In your original question you genericaly refer to 1911 type gun. If you are operating a Colt series 80 or later weapon the chances of an AD when droped on the muzzle in condition two are slim to none due to the firing pin safety. However, IMHO, the possibility of an AD is possible with other 1911's. As an exapmle I would like to point out Springfield Armory's decision to use a titanium firing pin in place of steel in order to pass certain drop tests in the testing of the F.B.I. pistol.
This has been a long debated question.
How was the 1911 pistol designed to be
carried? Cocked & locked? Hammer down
on a live round? We need a 1911 Historian
here to fill us in. I don't know the
answer! I know the "thumb safety" was
an addition that was not part of the
original design. What about the "grip
safety" was that also an addition after
the original design had been created?
The Browning Hi-power 9mm has no grip
safety. Also , trying to cock the hammer
on a 1911 with your shooting hand is
impossible because the grip safety is
not being depressed. Come on Historians
where are you , make it clear to me!
Sorry , I meant that decocking the hammer
with your shooting hand is damn near impossible , because of the grip safety.
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I got a short temper so watch it!
[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited September 07, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited September 09, 1999).]
How was the 1911 pistol designed to be
carried? Cocked & locked? Hammer down
on a live round? We need a 1911 Historian
here to fill us in. I don't know the
answer! I know the "thumb safety" was
an addition that was not part of the
original design. What about the "grip
safety" was that also an addition after
the original design had been created?
The Browning Hi-power 9mm has no grip
safety. Also , trying to cock the hammer
on a 1911 with your shooting hand is
impossible because the grip safety is
not being depressed. Come on Historians
where are you , make it clear to me!
Sorry , I meant that decocking the hammer
with your shooting hand is damn near impossible , because of the grip safety.
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I got a short temper so watch it!
[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited September 07, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by SHORTFUSE (edited September 09, 1999).]
I am not a historian by any means but have been collecting 1911's and information on them for a long time. JMB's early pistols did not have either grip or thumb safeties, here I am talking about his full sized pistols not the "pocket pistols" in .25/.32/.380. There were models of the 1905 Colt that had both grip and thumb safety but for the most part that model lacked both safeties also.
The original military specs for the new service pistol required an "automatic" safety that would be engaged when the pistol was not in hand and be disengaged when being held without effort on the shooter's part. The easiest way to achieve that was for JMB to add a grip safety. All throught out the trials various modifications of the original design were made until the Model 1910 arrived. This was the final frame and slide size that was adopted for service use. It just lacked the thumb safety.
The primary tester of the new pistol was the Cavalry since they were the ones that would be using them the most (no one expecting the Great War, automobiles and aeroplanes). One can infer from the original requirements for an "automatic" safety that the military intended the new service pistol to be carried in what today might be considered "Condition 0" with the chamber loaded and the hammer cocked. It was during the testing of the M-10 that it was decided that maybe, just maybe that a thumb safety might be a good idea. I suppose that change in the requirements occured after more than a couple of horses received a 230 grain slug in the head by accident.
The grip safety was retained because the Cavalry wanted the pistol to be safe if the Troopers were to let it fall to the end of the lanyard and go to the saber. (A fully armed Trooper would have 4 lanyards connecting him to his pistol, magazine in the pistol, and the two spare magazines, in theory. Most troopers in the early photos I have seen only have one lanyard to the pistol.)
From the requirements for both the grip and thumb safety, it might be safe to think that the pistol was to be carried in "Condition 1". The earliest military manual on the 1911 I have in my collection is from 1914 and it requires the pistol to be carried with the chamber empty and the hammer down. I don't know at what point the requirements for cocked and locked were changed. It appears that those requirements were changed after the pistol began to be issued to people with less training than the Cavalry. Remember, at that time period the Cavalry was the Special Forces and received somewhat better training than the rest of the army.
I hope that this helps and does not muddle the question any more.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited September 07, 1999).]
The original military specs for the new service pistol required an "automatic" safety that would be engaged when the pistol was not in hand and be disengaged when being held without effort on the shooter's part. The easiest way to achieve that was for JMB to add a grip safety. All throught out the trials various modifications of the original design were made until the Model 1910 arrived. This was the final frame and slide size that was adopted for service use. It just lacked the thumb safety.
The primary tester of the new pistol was the Cavalry since they were the ones that would be using them the most (no one expecting the Great War, automobiles and aeroplanes). One can infer from the original requirements for an "automatic" safety that the military intended the new service pistol to be carried in what today might be considered "Condition 0" with the chamber loaded and the hammer cocked. It was during the testing of the M-10 that it was decided that maybe, just maybe that a thumb safety might be a good idea. I suppose that change in the requirements occured after more than a couple of horses received a 230 grain slug in the head by accident.
The grip safety was retained because the Cavalry wanted the pistol to be safe if the Troopers were to let it fall to the end of the lanyard and go to the saber. (A fully armed Trooper would have 4 lanyards connecting him to his pistol, magazine in the pistol, and the two spare magazines, in theory. Most troopers in the early photos I have seen only have one lanyard to the pistol.)
From the requirements for both the grip and thumb safety, it might be safe to think that the pistol was to be carried in "Condition 1". The earliest military manual on the 1911 I have in my collection is from 1914 and it requires the pistol to be carried with the chamber empty and the hammer down. I don't know at what point the requirements for cocked and locked were changed. It appears that those requirements were changed after the pistol began to be issued to people with less training than the Cavalry. Remember, at that time period the Cavalry was the Special Forces and received somewhat better training than the rest of the army.
I hope that this helps and does not muddle the question any more.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited September 07, 1999).]
I analyze “Shortfuse” comments and he is absolutely right that cocking the hammer makes it impossible to depress the Grip Safety at the same time with one hand. My follow up question to you Shortfuse and Jim V – if I am travelling a long distance on a bus with my 1911 cocked and locked and accidentally the Manual Safety slide to Safety Off position (due to friction between my body and my pants or by any causes.) Are the Grip Safety and Pin Safety could prevent an accidental firing?
I'll appreciate if I can be answered with my question as this teach me to handle my pistol safely and for others safety as well.
Thanks,
I'll appreciate if I can be answered with my question as this teach me to handle my pistol safely and for others safety as well.
Thanks,
You certainly can cock a 1911 one handed. The grip safety need not be depressed to cock the pistol as it's only function is to block the trigger. Although I wouldn't recommend it, the 1911 can also be decocked with one hand. Thumbing the hammer back onto the top of the grip safety will depress the safety. Pull the trigger and lower the hammer with your thumb. Not something I'd try with a live round in the chamber, but it can be done.
In your case where the thumb safety is pushed off, the firing pin safety should prevent a discharge in a properly holstered pistol. Of course it it hard for me to imagine the thumb safety being disengaged accidentally in a properly carried 1911.
[This message has been edited by Sport45 (edited September 08, 1999).]
In your case where the thumb safety is pushed off, the firing pin safety should prevent a discharge in a properly holstered pistol. Of course it it hard for me to imagine the thumb safety being disengaged accidentally in a properly carried 1911.
[This message has been edited by Sport45 (edited September 08, 1999).]
Stdalire: I have carried a 1911 pistol of one type or another many a mile in what is called "Mex" carry, just stuffed in the belt without a holster. I never had the thumb safety disengage from any reason. However, if it did kick off I would trust the grip safety to keep it safe. I sure would be surprised when I drew it and went to disengage the thumb safety and found it off though.
The Series 80 firing pin safety would help keep things safe too, but I think that it was added more to prevent the highly improbable A/D from dropping the pistol.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited September 08, 1999).]
The Series 80 firing pin safety would help keep things safe too, but I think that it was added more to prevent the highly improbable A/D from dropping the pistol.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited September 08, 1999).]
Thank you Jim V and Sport45: Now I have confident in carrying my 1911 cocked and locked travelling in long distance. Not only in the range that I used to cocked and locked every time I double tap and holster between strings. Now I am not hesitant to have it cocked and locked whenever I carry it with me outside and or travelling at long hours. At least, when a pistol is on a cocked and lock position it took only split second to lower the safety.
Jim V, so series 80 Pin Safety is enhance, I have that one.
Thank you again.
Jim V, so series 80 Pin Safety is enhance, I have that one.
Thank you again.
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