1911 Question for the unbiased: What has to happen...

S

Shmackey

New member
...for a cocked and locked 1911 to have an AD?

In a sense, I'm wondering about the mechanics of the trigger/sear/hammer/safety/grip safety engagement. Assuming that the thumb safety doesn't accidentally get swiped off, what are all the scenarios (including mechanical failure--for instance, something involving the sear) in which a 1911 would fire? What exactly does the thumb safety prevent from happening? Oh, and can a smith set up your thumb safety so that it has a firm, positive click?

I love my Kimber as a target pistol, but I wonder. When it comes time for CCW, I have a sneaking suspicion that modern setups--even some cocked-and-locked setups like a CZ or HK--are safer.
 
Aside from a mechanically defective pistol (poor sear engagement, poor fitting of the safety, etc), there are only two scenarios that I can think of. One, it is a non-Series 80 w/o the firing pin block and with a weak firing pin spring, and it is dropped muzzle-down onto a hard surface. Second is a total failure of the sear nose, where it shears off and there's nothing left to arrest the fall of the hammer.

The second scenario indeed happened once according to Chuck Taylor, but it involved a heavily-worn old pistol and the old sear finally gave out. Typically, even if the hammer hooks shear off there is still the half-cock notch to stop the hammer (and if that shears off too, well, you're just having a really bad day).

With a modern gun is excellent mechanical condition, using new parts you have a lot less to worry about than if you were carrying a Glock or S&W Sigma. On the guns used for daily carry I have quality internal parts installed, not the cheap junk or something 50+ years old. With a grip safety, thumb safety, firing pin safety, AND half-cock notch (not to mention ye olde "finger off the trigger" trick) all working I'd have to be having a REALLY bad day to end up with an AD.
 
When the grip saftey is in the safe position, it blocks the rearward movement of the trigger bow.

The thumb safety has a stud on it (the inner side). When the thumb safety is in the safety on position this stud blocks the sear from moving.
 
Interesting. I assume other "modern guns" (if not all) have some kind of hammer/sear/something engagement that could possibly go wrong on a bad day.

So let's say I decide to keep my Kimber with its 2.5-lb trigger as a dedicated bullseye gun. If I wanted a 1911 for carry purposes, I'd look into a series 80 model (which I would ordinarily ignore) and have a smith do a good job reliability-wise: good parts, a firm safety (which I rarely use on my target gun), and so on.
 
You might also get opinions from the "carry pros" about 2.5# triger on a carry gun (under asusmption you do, god forbid, have to draw and present it under high stress and adrenalin rush). I'm far from expert, but 2.5#'s seems a bit "touchy" to me
 
The Kimber "II" pistols have a grip safety with a firing pin block. If the grip safety is not depressed, it will keep the firing pin from moving forward.
The other option is to put in a light firing pin. The idea is simple. If a pistol falls and lands muzzle first, the momentum of the firing pin may cause it to move forward with enough force to ignite the primer of the loaded round. This is why most pistols modern have a firing pin safety. With a lighter firing pin there will not be enough force to set off a primer, especially when the pin is combined with a heavier than normal firing pin spring.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Springfield got passed the CA drop tests by going with a titanium firing pin and an extra-power spring.
 
Interestingly, the much derided Ballester-Molina just might have a better manual safety system. Its manual safety cams the hammer back off the sear and imposes a solid block of steel to keep the hammer from falling or being driven down by a blow.

Jim
 
The series 80 model

Had my Colt Series 80 Commander smithed by Wilson Combat with the 2.5 trigger pull. I had problems at first due to the fact that I'm not use to such a lite trigger pull. After some practice, I got the hang of it.
 
Carry

Now when you, im assuming you mean CCW carry not duty carry
in any event I would not recomend anything that has been modified from factory specs..even by a highly known smith
yes even Bill Wilson ..in this happy day litigation world anything that is converted to be other than factory is considered a bad thing in the world of the court system..I have been a DPS instrutor for some years now and will not even consider recomending anything other that a true factory gun..with the options today you do not need to have the after market smiths tinker with these 1911's to get them to run like a horse at the derby.Kimber,Springfeild,Colt,Para....and on and on make just about anything your happy little heart wants..and do not ...DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT A 2.5 LBS TRIGGER .... unless you are doing IDPA or IPSC not for carry though CCW or duty..good luck
and stay Healthy...Joey
 
To avoid the sear from wearing, use a tool steel sear/hammer combo.Kimber uses MIM and they will wear out quicker, but nothing to be concerned about.Wolff power spring will also help prevent an AD.IMO, you're being a little too paranoid about th 1911's safety.The only thing that will probably cause an AD is the user.
 
touchy!

4.5lbs on my Gunsite Commander and that's easy enough by my way of thinking...That's my CCW carry gun and I really wouldn't want anything less. I'm also in agreement regarding the AD of a l911-style pistol. With grip safety, slide safety, and proper holster, the 1911 is probably the safest weapon available ....to the expert or novice alike.
 
Guys...I never said I wanted to use my 2.5# Kimber bullseye gun for carry.

So let's say I decide to keep my Kimber with its 2.5-lb trigger as a dedicated bullseye gun. If I wanted a 1911 for carry purposes, I'd look into a series 80 model (which I would ordinarily ignore) and have a smith do a good job reliability-wise: good parts, a firm safety (which I rarely use on my target gun), and so on.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about a new pistol entirely.
 
In order to have an AD when carrying the gun the thumb safety would have to be depressed and the grip safety would need to be squeezed and the trigger pulled.

Unless the gun is dropped and by pure misfortune the firearm hits in the right spot, then there is a chance of an AD!

More often than not AD's are a mental error rather than equipment failure. These are very rare!

:cool:
 
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