I have a 1911 that I've been working on as a learning tool. Great fun learning this stuff. Recently it started not going completely into battery. This is only occasional, but once is too often. It has a Kart NM barrel (carbon steel) in a stainless frame and slide. When it fails to go into battery, I can push it on in with some effort. The Armscor has maybe 800 rounds fired since new, and probably 600 or so since barrel replacement. Wondering about the spring, but that seems too soon to wear out. Another guess is whether the Kart chamber may be so tight as to cause a problem if not squeaky clean.
1911 not going into battery
- Thread starter cptmclark
- Start date
Several things can come up. A test Russ Carniak showed me years ago is to remove the magazine and let the slide go slowly forward. In a newly fit gun he felt it should be possilble for it to stop just short of locking up, but that if you then snapped your forearm and wrist downward and forward (the kind of motion you might make shaking a rinsed paintbrush out to dry) it should go into battery.
If it does not, check that you've adequately broken the edges of the locking lugs and their recesses in the frame (see Hallock's Book of the .45). Check that your extractor's bottom edge is radiused and polished and that the extractor is correctly tensioned. Check that your barrel extension (hood) isn't too tight (too long). Pull the slide and put the barrel and bushing back in and, holding it upside down, push down on the barrel (into the locking lugs) and check that it does not spring back; it should stay put if the bushing relief is adequately cut. Check that your barrel goes all the way down into the cradle in the frame by putting the barrel and slide stop into the frame and pulling the barrel fully into counterbattery, holding it there while you pull the slide stop back out. You should not feel the barrel move when you do.
Double-check your loaded ammo. Make sure that when you set a round into the barrel's chamber (barrel out; letting gravit do the work) that the casehead does not stick up above the barrel extension.
In a gun that is stock parts and where the link lugs have not been welded up and fit, check that the barrel link isn't too long.
Nick
If it does not, check that you've adequately broken the edges of the locking lugs and their recesses in the frame (see Hallock's Book of the .45). Check that your extractor's bottom edge is radiused and polished and that the extractor is correctly tensioned. Check that your barrel extension (hood) isn't too tight (too long). Pull the slide and put the barrel and bushing back in and, holding it upside down, push down on the barrel (into the locking lugs) and check that it does not spring back; it should stay put if the bushing relief is adequately cut. Check that your barrel goes all the way down into the cradle in the frame by putting the barrel and slide stop into the frame and pulling the barrel fully into counterbattery, holding it there while you pull the slide stop back out. You should not feel the barrel move when you do.
Double-check your loaded ammo. Make sure that when you set a round into the barrel's chamber (barrel out; letting gravit do the work) that the casehead does not stick up above the barrel extension.
In a gun that is stock parts and where the link lugs have not been welded up and fit, check that the barrel link isn't too long.
Nick
Thanks a lot. Wow, that's an education in itself. I'll get started on that. If it's of any help to know, the gun digested hundreds of rounds just fine between fitting the barrel and the beginning of the failure to go into battery.
One suggester had said that Kart barrels need to be relieved in the chamber area to assure proper feeding. Any thought on that angle?
One suggester had said that Kart barrels need to be relieved in the chamber area to assure proper feeding. Any thought on that angle?
A quick check on the first test: You didn't specify a round in the chamber or not, but empty I can't stop the slide from going full forward. With a round in the chamber, slow lowering of the slide results in stoppage before battery, apparantly on the extractor. A snap of the wrist will not do the track, but a sharp whack will do it. Not a real good idea with live ammo I guess, but I have done it on the range and the problem is cleared for at least that shot. The slide return spring is not strong enough to move the extractor over without intertia. I have cleaned the tunnel of the extractor, just in case that might be a problem, but if it helped it wasn't for long.
1911 extractors are not designed to "snap over" a chambered round.
Next, remove the firing pin retainer, firing pin & spring and extractor and see if it chambers a round easily. If it does, you need to work on the extractor because it isn't allowing the cartridge case rim to slip into the groove behind the hook easily. This can be caused by an improperly tensioned extractor, a clocked extractor, or an extractor without a chamfer into the groove behind the hook.
Next, remove the firing pin retainer, firing pin & spring and extractor and see if it chambers a round easily. If it does, you need to work on the extractor because it isn't allowing the cartridge case rim to slip into the groove behind the hook easily. This can be caused by an improperly tensioned extractor, a clocked extractor, or an extractor without a chamfer into the groove behind the hook.
extractor?
I removed the extractor and everything goes closed easliy. This is the same extractor since new and problems just started recently. No visable wear on the extractor. Not sure about the clocking. I see that it could be installed a couple of degrees rotated and go in just fine. There's that much slop in the retaining bar slot. It does fit so tightly in the tunnel that it needs to be lifted out with a tool.
I removed the extractor and everything goes closed easliy. This is the same extractor since new and problems just started recently. No visable wear on the extractor. Not sure about the clocking. I see that it could be installed a couple of degrees rotated and go in just fine. There's that much slop in the retaining bar slot. It does fit so tightly in the tunnel that it needs to be lifted out with a tool.
Since it chambers a cartridge easily without the extractor, that is the culprit. "Clocking" is the rotation of the installed extractor. A little rotation can prevent the case rim from slipping easily into the extractor groove and will cause the slide to hang up about a half inch from fully closing. A properly fitted extractor doesn't clock/rotate. There are folks who sell oversize firing pin retainer that prevent clocking.
The groove behind the extractor hook should have a chamfer/bevel to help ease the cartridge case rim into the groove. This can be done with a jeweler's file, just don't shorten the extractor hook.
A properly tensioned extractor will hold a loaded cartridge case in place in the slide. Remove the slide and barrel and insert the cartridge from below as if it were coming out of the magazine. The cartridge should be held in place with a slight nose-down (bullet down) droop. If the extractor doesn't hold the cartridge, pull the extractor out about half way and give it a firm bump with your thumb (right to left as viewed from the back of the slide). This adds more curve to the extractor shank and creates more spring-like tension against the cartridge rim to hold the cartridge in place.
The groove behind the extractor hook should have a chamfer/bevel to help ease the cartridge case rim into the groove. This can be done with a jeweler's file, just don't shorten the extractor hook.
A properly tensioned extractor will hold a loaded cartridge case in place in the slide. Remove the slide and barrel and insert the cartridge from below as if it were coming out of the magazine. The cartridge should be held in place with a slight nose-down (bullet down) droop. If the extractor doesn't hold the cartridge, pull the extractor out about half way and give it a firm bump with your thumb (right to left as viewed from the back of the slide). This adds more curve to the extractor shank and creates more spring-like tension against the cartridge rim to hold the cartridge in place.
The bottom of the groove has a slight bevel or is rounded off toward the lower edge. The hook itself is slightly radiused on the lower corner as well. Does this thing work like a "controlled round feed" on bolt rifles?
On reinstalling, if the flat on the rear of the extractor is flush with the slide tunnel hole, should that be adequate, or is there one way to err on the side of better function? (clockwise or counterclockwise)
The extractor does hold a cartidge against the breechface. I noticed when installing the extractor that it can go in very slight off-flush and not be noticed without a glass or feeling with a point, usually counter clockwise. Since it fits very tightly, it took trial and error, and a very close look to tell flush from almost flush. I don't see any key to line it up except for the surface of the slide. Now it's in flush, but it seems odd to take that much effort to get it right. Another thing I noticed is that the top of the flat on the extractor is polished, like maybe by the hammer. That could be explained by being clocked counter clockwise, as the hammer has a close fit there.
Another question this brings up, is whether it's hard on the extractor to single load it through the ejection port. I've been doing that for years testing loads too light to cycle with the current spring, and letting it slam closed. Maybe not a good idea?
On reinstalling, if the flat on the rear of the extractor is flush with the slide tunnel hole, should that be adequate, or is there one way to err on the side of better function? (clockwise or counterclockwise)
The extractor does hold a cartidge against the breechface. I noticed when installing the extractor that it can go in very slight off-flush and not be noticed without a glass or feeling with a point, usually counter clockwise. Since it fits very tightly, it took trial and error, and a very close look to tell flush from almost flush. I don't see any key to line it up except for the surface of the slide. Now it's in flush, but it seems odd to take that much effort to get it right. Another thing I noticed is that the top of the flat on the extractor is polished, like maybe by the hammer. That could be explained by being clocked counter clockwise, as the hammer has a close fit there.
Another question this brings up, is whether it's hard on the extractor to single load it through the ejection port. I've been doing that for years testing loads too light to cycle with the current spring, and letting it slam closed. Maybe not a good idea?
Yes, the 1911 extractor is designed as "controlled round feed".
It sounds like the chamfer in the extractor groove is present and the extractor tension is good. But the clocking needs to be fixed. As a temporary fix, you might try a tiny shim that fits into the notch at the rear of the extractor. The firing pin stop would hold the shim in place to prevent the extractor from clocking. The permanent solution is to fit an oversize FP stop.
The hammer whacking the flat on the back of the extractor can be fixed by filing the extractor so it doesn't intrude into the hammer's path. Repeated pounding from the hammer may have loosened the extractor and caused it to clock.
It sounds like the chamfer in the extractor groove is present and the extractor tension is good. But the clocking needs to be fixed. As a temporary fix, you might try a tiny shim that fits into the notch at the rear of the extractor. The firing pin stop would hold the shim in place to prevent the extractor from clocking. The permanent solution is to fit an oversize FP stop.
The hammer whacking the flat on the back of the extractor can be fixed by filing the extractor so it doesn't intrude into the hammer's path. Repeated pounding from the hammer may have loosened the extractor and caused it to clock.
Is the shim to fill the slop in the retaining bar slot? The extractor fits so tightly in the tunnel (tight at the back) that I have to pry it out and tap (firmly) it in. It seems that it couldn't move in there, even without the firing pin retainer, but then I've never ridden the slide back and forth. Maybe more jarring that I expect.
Yes, that's the shim's purpose. You can sometimes also put the firing pin stop on an anvil and use a punch to upset its edge outward, top to bottom. This will then fit more snuggly up against the slot in the extractor. You can also use an automatic centerpunch, as in the illustration below. After upsetting the edges, you just file them until they fit. Try to line them up on the right side so that one is at the top edge of the extractor notch and one is at the bottom when the part is installed.
Nick
Nick
Try, try again
Before changing or modifying parts, I tried again after making sure the flat on the extractor was exactly flush top and bottom with the slide. Any clocking should be apparant, I was thinking. I also put spotting ink on the hammer to see if it was whacking the extractor.
After maybe 15 rounds I was presented with a jam. This one was a bit different, with the rim forward of the extractor completely. The cartridge was simply wedged between the forward face of the extractor and the bottom of the feed ramp. For some reason it came up in front of, rather than behind, the extractor blade. The extractor had not rotated, and fits so tightly that I'd be surprised if it could. (It has to be whacked in and pryed out).
Does this shed any new light?
Before changing or modifying parts, I tried again after making sure the flat on the extractor was exactly flush top and bottom with the slide. Any clocking should be apparant, I was thinking. I also put spotting ink on the hammer to see if it was whacking the extractor.
After maybe 15 rounds I was presented with a jam. This one was a bit different, with the rim forward of the extractor completely. The cartridge was simply wedged between the forward face of the extractor and the bottom of the feed ramp. For some reason it came up in front of, rather than behind, the extractor blade. The extractor had not rotated, and fits so tightly that I'd be surprised if it could. (It has to be whacked in and pryed out).
Does this shed any new light?
Harry Bonar
New member
45
Dear Sir:
It is extremely difficult to address this without having the pistol.
It could be the chamber, the top hood and lug fit, the bottom lug fit (wasn't a drop in bbl was it).
The 45 is a controlled round feed gun and yes the extractor could be it. At Novaks we would polish even Kart or BartSto bbls at the top of the chamber slightly more than the rest, and, heavens to Betsy, we would even give maybe .005 - .010 excess headspace in the bbl - they do seem to group better that way. You will almost never find a case the specified length.
As you've been told extractor tension never needs to be tighter than what will hold an empty in the slide, and yes, the inner lower notch needs to be bevelled.
Hope this helps!
Harry B.
Also, the link should be checked by an expert - there is NO-SUCH thing as a "drop-in" part on a 1911!
Dear Sir:
It is extremely difficult to address this without having the pistol.
It could be the chamber, the top hood and lug fit, the bottom lug fit (wasn't a drop in bbl was it).
The 45 is a controlled round feed gun and yes the extractor could be it. At Novaks we would polish even Kart or BartSto bbls at the top of the chamber slightly more than the rest, and, heavens to Betsy, we would even give maybe .005 - .010 excess headspace in the bbl - they do seem to group better that way. You will almost never find a case the specified length.
As you've been told extractor tension never needs to be tighter than what will hold an empty in the slide, and yes, the inner lower notch needs to be bevelled.
Hope this helps!
Harry B.
Also, the link should be checked by an expert - there is NO-SUCH thing as a "drop-in" part on a 1911!
Hmmm, well, my pride took a small ding there, but I can take it. I did the final fitting myself in accordance with the Kart instructions. It passed the tests outlined in the Kart literature, and shot and functioned fine for awhile, maybe 600 rounds or so.
Of course you're correct that it might not be done right. The pride is in learning to do it myself of course, the reason I bought cheap to upgrade. I can say that accuracy went from about 2.7 to 1.4, more or less, at 25, so I got a warm fuzzy from that. I already have pistols that are too good to risk me screwing them up.
The aftermarket Kart barrel never did like wadcutters though. Therein lies evidence for the wisdom of your chamber relieving procedure. Maybe I'll drag it off to the local gunsmith to see if I got the hood and lugs right. Or, I can reinstall the factory barrel and see if that still works well in original configuration. Don't see why it would just start screwing up unless something broke or wore out. But then I'm an ameteur, and the fun is in the learning. Only thing wrong with this new cheapo for the firest 500 or so rounds (original barrel) was light strikes, and I found the firing pin tunnel packed with grease or heavy oil. Must be some new budget cutting technique.
Of course it saves ammo when it wont fire
.
Of course you're correct that it might not be done right. The pride is in learning to do it myself of course, the reason I bought cheap to upgrade. I can say that accuracy went from about 2.7 to 1.4, more or less, at 25, so I got a warm fuzzy from that. I already have pistols that are too good to risk me screwing them up.
The aftermarket Kart barrel never did like wadcutters though. Therein lies evidence for the wisdom of your chamber relieving procedure. Maybe I'll drag it off to the local gunsmith to see if I got the hood and lugs right. Or, I can reinstall the factory barrel and see if that still works well in original configuration. Don't see why it would just start screwing up unless something broke or wore out. But then I'm an ameteur, and the fun is in the learning. Only thing wrong with this new cheapo for the firest 500 or so rounds (original barrel) was light strikes, and I found the firing pin tunnel packed with grease or heavy oil. Must be some new budget cutting technique.
Of course it saves ammo when it wont fire .My first question is this a Kart easy fit barrel. Second did you have to remove any material from the rear of the hood, the chambers in all the kart barrels that i have fitted were quit tight, but if you have removed material from the rear of the barrel hood you could have a head space problem
Thanks
James
Thanks
James
Did the round that jumped ahead of the extractor happen to be the last round in the magazine and does the magazine have a "teat" in the follower?
Oh, Harry, I note you said, "there is NO-SUCH thing as a "drop-in" part on a 1911!"
I spent a fair amount of time as a military armorer and never found a GI part that didn't drop in and didn't work right when it did. If you are referring to the modern clones made by idjits who wouldn't know a specification if they tripped over one, I agree. Many of those new guns are so badly made that even parts from the original maker won't fit without working over. (And I am not talking about closely fitted target pistols.)
Jim
Oh, Harry, I note you said, "there is NO-SUCH thing as a "drop-in" part on a 1911!"
I spent a fair amount of time as a military armorer and never found a GI part that didn't drop in and didn't work right when it did. If you are referring to the modern clones made by idjits who wouldn't know a specification if they tripped over one, I agree. Many of those new guns are so badly made that even parts from the original maker won't fit without working over. (And I am not talking about closely fitted target pistols.)
Jim
James, it was indeed the Kart easy fit barrel, and yes, I did remove a bit from the rear and one side of the hood. Just enough to let the provided feeler gauge pass. My understanding is that it should not touch the breechface. I assumed the headspace was OK just because it functioned fine for a while, no distortions in cases. Of course there are mixed opinions on headspace, as one opiner lengthens the headspace a bit. The failures to feed have been two types: first the cartridge would stop about 1/4 inch from battery. This did not recur the last time out after meticulously aligning the extractor flush with the frame. (Shouldn't there be a key so it can't go in clocked? Maybe that's what I might accomplish with the retainer shims, but we're taking thouthandths here.)
The second and most recent was easier to view since it never made it to the chamber but lodged between the front of the extractor and the bottom of the feed ramp (nosedive). Yes, it was ball ammo.
Jim, on this last adventure the round that misfed was not the last round. The magazine this time was a Wilson Combat unit with a hump on the top of the follower, but nothing I would call a teat.
Perhaps not relevant, but I notice the fired brass has a scorch a bit back from the mouth on one side only. If it was a rifle I'd say the load was too mild to adequately expand the brass, but I don't think this is uncommon. What say ye?
Thanks guys,
Mike
The second and most recent was easier to view since it never made it to the chamber but lodged between the front of the extractor and the bottom of the feed ramp (nosedive). Yes, it was ball ammo.
Jim, on this last adventure the round that misfed was not the last round. The magazine this time was a Wilson Combat unit with a hump on the top of the follower, but nothing I would call a teat.
Perhaps not relevant, but I notice the fired brass has a scorch a bit back from the mouth on one side only. If it was a rifle I'd say the load was too mild to adequately expand the brass, but I don't think this is uncommon. What say ye?
Thanks guys,
Mike
When I read your post the first time it didn't hit me but armscor has a reputation for bad recoil springs that are known to be on the weak side I would go ahead and replace it. Also chances are that if you have removed any material from the rear of the barrel hood chances are your head space is short the mininal headspace is .898 and the max is .920. I use Clymer reamers and they normally open up the chamber alittle bit also because they are alittle on the tight side. You can measure your case length and see what size of feeler gauge fits between your case head and breech face and add the two together and see what your head space is. I like to be toward to max due to so so many variations in casings and that i load my own using the same casings several times
Thanks
James
Thanks
James
Harry Bonar
New member
bbl. fitting
Dear Sir:
On a 1911 there exists no "drop-in" part! That is a given! There are parts that will "drop-in" but if they "fit" it is a miracle! Most, if not all parts that :drop-in" are just that; they drop-in and that's not a fited part.
The bbl. hood must clear the sides! The lugs must go into the upper recesses and the hood must contact the slide with no light visible and yet the hood and the upper lugs must take the stress of firing EQUALLY!
Now, the botton lugs must be 'cut' so that when the pistol is in battery and you press down on the bbl. there is NO play.
The link must be the right length - all it does is pull down the bbl out of battery - it must be timed right. It to some degree helps bring the bbl. up in battery - the radius on the bottom lugs really SHOULD bring the bbl. into battery! Yet the link timing is critical!
I just cannot go any further into bb. fitting unless I could demonstrate it to you personally.
Bbl. fitting is an art - iIfit many working at Novaks with my son Joe Bonar.
There are little nuances to it I need to show you - if you have a question put it on the forum and I'll do my best to help.
Try to keep this truth in mind; there are NO drop-in parts for the properly fit 1911. Drop in parts are sold to the public for the very reason that bbl. etc. fitting is hard and MUST BE FIT RIGHT. People think, "Oh! It's a drop-in this will be easy. Get in touch with a reliable smith who understands the 1911 - (not that these other gentlemen do not) their advice is worthy - it's just hard to explain 1911 bbl. fitting.
Harry B.
Dear Sir:
On a 1911 there exists no "drop-in" part! That is a given! There are parts that will "drop-in" but if they "fit" it is a miracle! Most, if not all parts that :drop-in" are just that; they drop-in and that's not a fited part.
The bbl. hood must clear the sides! The lugs must go into the upper recesses and the hood must contact the slide with no light visible and yet the hood and the upper lugs must take the stress of firing EQUALLY!
Now, the botton lugs must be 'cut' so that when the pistol is in battery and you press down on the bbl. there is NO play.
The link must be the right length - all it does is pull down the bbl out of battery - it must be timed right. It to some degree helps bring the bbl. up in battery - the radius on the bottom lugs really SHOULD bring the bbl. into battery! Yet the link timing is critical!
I just cannot go any further into bb. fitting unless I could demonstrate it to you personally.
Bbl. fitting is an art - iIfit many working at Novaks with my son Joe Bonar.
There are little nuances to it I need to show you - if you have a question put it on the forum and I'll do my best to help.
Try to keep this truth in mind; there are NO drop-in parts for the properly fit 1911. Drop in parts are sold to the public for the very reason that bbl. etc. fitting is hard and MUST BE FIT RIGHT. People think, "Oh! It's a drop-in this will be easy. Get in touch with a reliable smith who understands the 1911 - (not that these other gentlemen do not) their advice is worthy - it's just hard to explain 1911 bbl. fitting.
Harry B.