I've read the books, seen the videos, reviewed the threads, purchased the jigs, and spend countless hours "learning." I have no problem getting a reliable, safe, 2lb trigger pull using premium hammer, sear, and a light weight trigger (the STI's seem to be the lightest) However, getting that "glass break" seems to be hit and miss. Any tips from the pros. Thanks.
1911 Glass Break Trigger
- Thread starter RR
- Start date
Harry Bonar
New member
"Glass break trigger"
Dear Shooter:
A 2 lb. trigger on a 1911 is patently an unsafe one - it will "follow.
A 4 lb. trigger on any handgun is as light as I would ever go! Most of the good smiths who really know the 1911 will agree.
A word about "light triggers" is in order: Triggers are made light for one reason only on sporting arms - to reduce "flinching." Learning how to correctly pull a trigger will cure this. I just got done with trial as an expert witness concerning this very thing - a man blew off his foot with a rifle someone had rendered the trigger so light that it fired on safety.
At a nationally known combat pistol shop where my late son and I worked would never let anything less than 4 lbs. out the door. On the street, shooting someone with a 2 lb. trigger will get you into San Quenton for several years!
Yes, there are 2 lb. triggers on 1911s that don't follow - but there are veryu few indeed. Learn how to correctly press your trigger with the first pad of your finger and you will shoot just as good with a 5 or 6 lb. trigger.
We set, "street triggers" for real lawmen at that weight to avoid suits even during a "righteous shooting."
Harry B.
Dear Shooter:
A 2 lb. trigger on a 1911 is patently an unsafe one - it will "follow.
A 4 lb. trigger on any handgun is as light as I would ever go! Most of the good smiths who really know the 1911 will agree.
A word about "light triggers" is in order: Triggers are made light for one reason only on sporting arms - to reduce "flinching." Learning how to correctly pull a trigger will cure this. I just got done with trial as an expert witness concerning this very thing - a man blew off his foot with a rifle someone had rendered the trigger so light that it fired on safety.
At a nationally known combat pistol shop where my late son and I worked would never let anything less than 4 lbs. out the door. On the street, shooting someone with a 2 lb. trigger will get you into San Quenton for several years!
Yes, there are 2 lb. triggers on 1911s that don't follow - but there are veryu few indeed. Learn how to correctly press your trigger with the first pad of your finger and you will shoot just as good with a 5 or 6 lb. trigger.
We set, "street triggers" for real lawmen at that weight to avoid suits even during a "righteous shooting."
Harry B.
brickeyee, I am using the Brownell's kit:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=868&title=TRIGGER,+HAMMER+&+SEAR+KIT
FF-46 India Stone, Ground Black Ceramic Stone and Ground White Ceramic Stone
I am also using the Power's jig and I have the Yapavi jig also.
I am presently working with a Koenig Hammer and a EGW sear.
The last one I did was with Cylinder & Slide hammer and sear-glass break. But I just can't get it the same with the Koenig and EGW. Any thoughts??
________________________________________________________
Harry, you wrote "A 2 lb. trigger on a 1911 is patently an unsafe one - it will follow."
Your wrong.
Look at Rob Leatham's equipment:
http://www.robleatham.com/answers050408.htm
Discipline Caliber Trigger Weight
IDPA CDP .45 2 - 2.5 lbs.
1911 SSC .40 / .45 1.5 - 1.75 lbs.
USPSA/IPSCLimited & Std .40 1 - 1.25 lbs.
USPSA Open 9 X 23 1 - 1.25 lbs.
Bianchi Metallic Sights .9 mm 1.25 - 1.5 lbs.
I am not aware of his hammer "following." Neither does mine or the many I shoot with who have sub 2lb triggers. Over 20,000 rounds on my steel gun with a 1.75 lb trigger. These are guns used solely for competition.
Also Harry, note Brownells 2 1/2 lb Guntech Article.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=349
No, Harry, it is not unsafe, and if done correctly they don't follow.
Hmm, I wonder if the top smiths who cater to the competition shooter, who shoot in excess of 30,000 rounds per year get many requests for 4 lb triggers. Don't think so. Is it because these shooters don't know how to pull a trigger and want a light trigger. Again, I don't think so.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=868&title=TRIGGER,+HAMMER+&+SEAR+KIT
FF-46 India Stone, Ground Black Ceramic Stone and Ground White Ceramic Stone
I am also using the Power's jig and I have the Yapavi jig also.
I am presently working with a Koenig Hammer and a EGW sear.
The last one I did was with Cylinder & Slide hammer and sear-glass break. But I just can't get it the same with the Koenig and EGW. Any thoughts??
________________________________________________________
Harry, you wrote "A 2 lb. trigger on a 1911 is patently an unsafe one - it will follow."
Your wrong.
Look at Rob Leatham's equipment:
http://www.robleatham.com/answers050408.htm
Discipline Caliber Trigger Weight
IDPA CDP .45 2 - 2.5 lbs.
1911 SSC .40 / .45 1.5 - 1.75 lbs.
USPSA/IPSCLimited & Std .40 1 - 1.25 lbs.
USPSA Open 9 X 23 1 - 1.25 lbs.
Bianchi Metallic Sights .9 mm 1.25 - 1.5 lbs.
I am not aware of his hammer "following." Neither does mine or the many I shoot with who have sub 2lb triggers. Over 20,000 rounds on my steel gun with a 1.75 lb trigger. These are guns used solely for competition.
Also Harry, note Brownells 2 1/2 lb Guntech Article.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=349
No, Harry, it is not unsafe, and if done correctly they don't follow.
Hmm, I wonder if the top smiths who cater to the competition shooter, who shoot in excess of 30,000 rounds per year get many requests for 4 lb triggers. Don't think so. Is it because these shooters don't know how to pull a trigger and want a light trigger. Again, I don't think so.
There really isn't anything like a glass rod breaking on a good 1911 trigger setup, you have to have sear travel in the hammer hooks to release the hammer. The most common way people try to get the glass rod feel is by reducing hammer and sear engagement. That is the WRONG way to do it, and brings about the unsafe conditions Harry mentioned as well as a good potential for the trigger job not lasting very long at all. To get a reliable and safe to use light trigger you must maintain all the sear engagement you can get, and match the angle of it to the hammer hooks exactly, then smooth them without disturbing the angles even a tiny bit.
My STI has a 1 pound 10 ounce trigger, almost to a man the people that have tried it said it 'breaks like a glass rod' but it doesn't. There is .023" of sear travel to break, the difference between it and other triggers in the same weight range that don't feel as good is that the angles are matched precisely between the hammer and the sear, and the surface finishes on the two are very smooth.
I really can't tell any difference in my competition scores using the sub 2 pound trigger on my STI or jacking it up to 4 pounds though.
EDIT: Seems you have the basics under control reading the post you wrote while I was writing.
Have the hammer hooks cut to a PERFECT 90* on a mill, then go to work on the sear. It will make all the difference.
My STI has a 1 pound 10 ounce trigger, almost to a man the people that have tried it said it 'breaks like a glass rod' but it doesn't. There is .023" of sear travel to break, the difference between it and other triggers in the same weight range that don't feel as good is that the angles are matched precisely between the hammer and the sear, and the surface finishes on the two are very smooth.
I really can't tell any difference in my competition scores using the sub 2 pound trigger on my STI or jacking it up to 4 pounds though.
EDIT: Seems you have the basics under control reading the post you wrote while I was writing.
Have the hammer hooks cut to a PERFECT 90* on a mill, then go to work on the sear. It will make all the difference.
HSMITH, you wrote "Have the hammer hooks cut to a PERFECT 90* on a mill, then go to work on the sear. It will make all the difference."
I don't have a mill. I do have the Brownells' hammer squaring file. However, I know that my hand is not steady enough to try and square the hooks, so I use quality hammers (C&S). This is my first try with the Koenig hammer (supposed to be a very "high end" hammer). Without a mill, the hammer hooks is one variable I can't control. After reading your post, maybe its best to use the C&S parts. Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: Oops, I've drawn the attention of the "light triggers are dangerous" crowd. I hope they don't go to an IPSC/Steel Challenge match, because they will literally be surrounded by crazy unsafe people running around shooting guns with "hair" triggers, and their grip safeties pinned.
Hmm, I thought this was the gunsmithing forum, where I asked a question about gunsmithing. I didn't solicit opinions on how heavy must a 1911 trigger be to be safe, nor do I what your opinion.
I don't have a mill. I do have the Brownells' hammer squaring file. However, I know that my hand is not steady enough to try and square the hooks, so I use quality hammers (C&S). This is my first try with the Koenig hammer (supposed to be a very "high end" hammer). Without a mill, the hammer hooks is one variable I can't control. After reading your post, maybe its best to use the C&S parts. Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: Oops, I've drawn the attention of the "light triggers are dangerous" crowd. I hope they don't go to an IPSC/Steel Challenge match, because they will literally be surrounded by crazy unsafe people running around shooting guns with "hair" triggers, and their grip safeties pinned.
Hmm, I thought this was the gunsmithing forum, where I asked a question about gunsmithing. I didn't solicit opinions on how heavy must a 1911 trigger be to be safe, nor do I what your opinion.
Last edited:
Wildalaska
Moderator
+1 Harry
WildwillleavitatthatAlaska
WildwillleavitatthatAlaska
The Koenig hammer is a well respected hammer for sure. Maybe you can get that one cut on a mill and see what happens. Just a couple thousandths to clean and true the hooks with a good mill. Any decent machine shop should be able to do it, just tell them it has to be a PERFECT 90 to the pin hole an 8 finish minimum.
Assuming the frame is in spec, you can get a crisp pull on the 1911 by using full-diameter trigger/hammer pins, a well-finished and full-dimension disconnector, and clean, barstock sears and hammers. Very little or no stoning is required, and the mating surfaces will ususally wear in, regardless. A little lube in the right places is another component that hardly gets mentioned, but has a noticable effect on the finished product.
If you ever have a 1911 go burp-gun on you, this urge for dangerously-light triggers will leave you. Four pounds is plenty light, and a good bullseye shooter can still punch 50-yard x's with such a trigger. A lousy shot won't become a National Match contender with a dangerous trigger. He just becomes a dangerous lousy shot.
I'm with Harry on this one, and I've been building my own for about 25 years now.
If you ever have a 1911 go burp-gun on you, this urge for dangerously-light triggers will leave you. Four pounds is plenty light, and a good bullseye shooter can still punch 50-yard x's with such a trigger. A lousy shot won't become a National Match contender with a dangerous trigger. He just becomes a dangerous lousy shot.
I'm with Harry on this one, and I've been building my own for about 25 years now.
HSMITH: Why not? I'll call around and see if there is a local machine shop and ask them. Nothing to lose. Wish I had some type of jig to tell if the hooks are precisely at 90 degrees. Nothing to lose. Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
As to RJAY, invssgt, Wildalaska, and Yoshi, I suggest you watch the four part AGI series done by Gene Shuey. He modifies a stock 1911, builds up a Caspian, and builds a wide-body racegun. Good stuff, and you may learn something OR .... just continue to hijack threads in the gunsmithing forum. Regardless, it was interesting to read your responses. Hey, guess what, I sometimes tumble loaded rounds. I sometimes leave One-Shot lube on the cases and then fire them. And here is the kicker-I pin my grip safeties. One more, my Glock used for Limited has a 1 1/2 trigger
.....See
http://www.vanekcustom.com
Now take a deep breath....Now post how dangerous I am.......
As to RJAY, invssgt, Wildalaska, and Yoshi, I suggest you watch the four part AGI series done by Gene Shuey. He modifies a stock 1911, builds up a Caspian, and builds a wide-body racegun. Good stuff, and you may learn something OR .... just continue to hijack threads in the gunsmithing forum. Regardless, it was interesting to read your responses. Hey, guess what, I sometimes tumble loaded rounds. I sometimes leave One-Shot lube on the cases and then fire them. And here is the kicker-I pin my grip safeties. One more, my Glock used for Limited has a 1 1/2 trigger
.....See http://www.vanekcustom.com
Now take a deep breath....Now post how dangerous I am.......
Wildalaska
Moderator
gee harry, we dont know nothing
Lets be home gunasmiths and do 2 1/2 pund triggers, and be so good at it we have to ask advice on the net!
I still have that comic book with the ad for "be a Gun Pro!" courses, maybe I'll take one
WildwhateverAlaska
Yep- being dumber-n-hell like me requires no originality at all. I guess I'm so dumb I thought the original question (but I'm beginning to understand now that it was a statement) was how to get the crispness of trigger that makes the gun easier to shoot, whether it has a 3 or 5 pound pull. Sorry if I ruined anybody's preconcieved notions about all that.
cntryboy1289
New member
Lol
I guess I am late coming to the party, RR, you have managed to tell off one of the premier gunsmiths around. He and his son did a lot of work on a certain brand of 45ACP's. I won't go into detail and tell you which brand because you obviously don't really care. He tipped you off to the fact that he is considered an expert enough to testify in court cases. This alone should have humbled you enough to temper your tongue, but alas, you went right ahead and blasted Him and everyone else that commented to you that a 4lb trigger is all you need to take it down to for a safe gun. You never mentioned that you were trying to smith a competition gun in the first place. You said you were assembling parts and trying to get a 2 lb pull that broke like glass.
Now, I can tell you just like the rest of the guys that have tried to tell you, 4 lbs is plenty light. I learned from a guy that used to smith in the Air Force for the Bull's Eye competition at Camp Perry. He would never try to go lower than 4lbs because of the very reasons the others have mentioned to you.
You remarked that all of your competition buddies pin the grip safety as well as run around shooting 11/2lb triggers all the time. Sir, I would greatly appreciate it if you took this into consideration: The competition only takes place toward a berm of dirt to help control the rounds fired above the target because it happens that some of those great guys you brought up shoot one off high now and then because of the light triggers you bragged so much about. They never load them and carry them as in a carry rig because they know that if they shot someone they would end up having to go to court over such a light pull. You can hickup and pull the trigger when it gets under 4lbs and this is why so many good smiths on this forum have sounded off to you about it. Now, if all of that bothers you so much, you don't have to come back and PO anyone else. Thanks for enlightening all of us as to what is safe and not safe, we really needed that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
I guess I am late coming to the party, RR, you have managed to tell off one of the premier gunsmiths around. He and his son did a lot of work on a certain brand of 45ACP's. I won't go into detail and tell you which brand because you obviously don't really care. He tipped you off to the fact that he is considered an expert enough to testify in court cases. This alone should have humbled you enough to temper your tongue, but alas, you went right ahead and blasted Him and everyone else that commented to you that a 4lb trigger is all you need to take it down to for a safe gun. You never mentioned that you were trying to smith a competition gun in the first place. You said you were assembling parts and trying to get a 2 lb pull that broke like glass.
Now, I can tell you just like the rest of the guys that have tried to tell you, 4 lbs is plenty light. I learned from a guy that used to smith in the Air Force for the Bull's Eye competition at Camp Perry. He would never try to go lower than 4lbs because of the very reasons the others have mentioned to you.
You remarked that all of your competition buddies pin the grip safety as well as run around shooting 11/2lb triggers all the time. Sir, I would greatly appreciate it if you took this into consideration: The competition only takes place toward a berm of dirt to help control the rounds fired above the target because it happens that some of those great guys you brought up shoot one off high now and then because of the light triggers you bragged so much about. They never load them and carry them as in a carry rig because they know that if they shot someone they would end up having to go to court over such a light pull. You can hickup and pull the trigger when it gets under 4lbs and this is why so many good smiths on this forum have sounded off to you about it. Now, if all of that bothers you so much, you don't have to come back and PO anyone else. Thanks for enlightening all of us as to what is safe and not safe, we really needed that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
cntryboy1289. You guys just keep on coming and coming.....
I explained in my second post that "These are guns used solely for competition," yet you guys continue and continue.
At least one of the smiths on this forum sells open guns and limited guns with...GASP...a 2lb trigger. Look at Robert E. Hunter's site Huntercustoms.
http://www.huntercustoms.com/limited_class_guns_ieo.htm
Come'on let us hear more....
I explained in my second post that "These are guns used solely for competition," yet you guys continue and continue.
At least one of the smiths on this forum sells open guns and limited guns with...GASP...a 2lb trigger. Look at Robert E. Hunter's site Huntercustoms.
http://www.huntercustoms.com/limited_class_guns_ieo.htm
Come'on let us hear more....
invssgt, you asked "Ok, now I have a question. What kind of competition?"
IPSC/UPSA (for the single stack/limited 10 division). I am building up single stack from a 45 acp Caspian frame and slide. I have had good luck with the Cylinder and Slide hammer and sears before, also the SV tri-glide parts, and STI hammers with the S-3 sears. I thought I would try a Koenig hammer and EGW hard sear this time. I stoned the primary and secondary on the sear, and only touched up the hammer hooks with a stone (I don't have a mill). I got a good safe light trigger, but it just doesn't seem to have the "crispness" of the C&S triggers I have done. "Boosting" it doesn't help. Got what looks like ideal engagment, very neutral engagment. HSMITH mentioned having the hammer hooks done. I think I'll go that route. Any suggestions to try. Thanks.
IPSC/UPSA (for the single stack/limited 10 division). I am building up single stack from a 45 acp Caspian frame and slide. I have had good luck with the Cylinder and Slide hammer and sears before, also the SV tri-glide parts, and STI hammers with the S-3 sears. I thought I would try a Koenig hammer and EGW hard sear this time. I stoned the primary and secondary on the sear, and only touched up the hammer hooks with a stone (I don't have a mill). I got a good safe light trigger, but it just doesn't seem to have the "crispness" of the C&S triggers I have done. "Boosting" it doesn't help. Got what looks like ideal engagment, very neutral engagment. HSMITH mentioned having the hammer hooks done. I think I'll go that route. Any suggestions to try. Thanks.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Dont know much about Mr Hunter but I do know that jack weigand will do a 2 1/2 pound trigger for certain competiton guns.
Also know that a smith like Mr weigand who has done thousands of trigger jobs is far better qualified to do 2.5s than one who is just startin.....
By the way I'll bet you Harry Bonar doesnt need a Power jig to do a trigger job...I know that Jim West and our boys dont...
WildbutheyitsjusttheneteveryoneisanexpertAlaska
Also know that a smith like Mr weigand who has done thousands of trigger jobs is far better qualified to do 2.5s than one who is just startin.....
By the way I'll bet you Harry Bonar doesnt need a Power jig to do a trigger job...I know that Jim West and our boys dont...
WildbutheyitsjusttheneteveryoneisanexpertAlaska