1911 fit/quality question

[GreenDragon]

I have been reading the posts from everyone to the questions asked by myself and others and it is very helpful. I have decided I will probably purchase a Kimber Compact rather than a Colt CCO or a SA Compact unless the kinber is WAY to expensive or something changes my mind in the meantime. One thing that I hear mentioned is the slide to frame fit and barrel lockup varying from gun to gun (especially on SA's and colts.)
Could someone please explain how muxh of a difference this makes, what it means, and how do I check for it in the gun shop. I think I have a basic idea but would like to know more. Is there anything else I should look for on a gun (particularly a 1911, new or used)
Thank you

 

[B Shipley]

How tightly the barrel "locks up" into the slide affects accuracy. I push down on the barrel hood to feel the amount of play. Some is okay (just a little tiny bit) for any carry gun. Also check the bushing to frame and barrel to bushing fit by pushing around on the end of the barrel. These should be very tight when in battery. Buy Kuhnhausen's "A Shop Manual fot the Colt .45 Automatic." for more info ~$25 from Brownell's

 

[Oris]

You got to remember one thing - tight tolerances are generally good for accuracy
and bad for reliability. Good pistol is the one that has both accuracy and reliability requirements in balance (or in compromise).
I hope this answers your question about
frame to slide fit.

 

[Mikey]

There are variations in the fit of all those makes listed, even the Kimber, because they are assembled from parts with little or no fitting. That's the only way they can make them that cheap. A fitted gun will run almost $1000 just for the premium parts - before anything is fitted.

How important is fit? The reply will vary depending on your purpose.

If you want a good defensive pistol that may have a few thousand rounds fired through it during it's lifetime and you expect decent accuracy out to 15-20 yards, a fairly sloppy 1911 may do just fine.

If you want a competitive IPSC or IDPA gun that will have to withstand thousands of rounds each season, you would want a tighter fit.

If you want a 50 yard bullseye gun then you may want an even better fit.

To check the fit in the shop, cock the hammer manually and check to be sure the gun is unloaded. Leave the hammer cocked and work the slide slowly back and forth. There should be no binding and the slide movement should feel fairly smooth if there is lube present. You should feel the disconnecter bumping the bottom of the slide during the rearward stroke and again during the forward stroke. It should not bind or feel gritty and it shouldn't impede the movement of the slide. With the slide fully forward, attempt to move the slide up and down and side to side. There should be very little perceptable movement. If it is so loose that the gun rattles when you shake it, look for another one. Sometimes the exact same model will have a vastly different fit!

Now let the slide go forward briskly (but don't let it slam shut) and push down on the top of the barrel (chamber area) which is visible through the ejection port. There should be little or no movement. If there is a little movement, check it several times and try to satisfy yourself that it is the same every time. This checks the fit between the slide stop pin and the lugs on the bottom of the barrel. If it fits a little loose, it will be absolutely necessary to make sure it consistently returns to the same position each time for consistent acceptable accuracy.

In my custom guns you would swear that the slide and barrel were welded together until you move the slide. There is NO perceptable movement of the barrel or slide during the "in battery" tests described above. This makes for a VERY accurate pistol and one that will stand up to many thousands of rounds. It makes shots on hard cover or obscured targets with very small scoring areas possible. This level of fit is not necessary, or perhaps even desirable, in a defensive carry piece - although I wouldn't hesitate to use mine in that role, but that's me.

I also have a "factory sloppy" Springfield that I use as a defensive piece. It has been tweaked a bit but the fit is just as it came from Springfield - a little movement between slide and frame, but not rattling - a little movement at the barrel hood but consistent. It is reliable and shoots well enough for head shots on IDPA targets out to 15 yards during match conditions - a little further if I take my time.

Hope this helps

Mikey

 

[Brian Bilby]

On a iron sighted gun the barrel to slide and bushing fit is where the accuracy is. Slide fit means little of nothing to the accuracy. The sights are on the slide, the barrel locks into the slide and bushing. The frame is just a gripping/ignition point. The gun will lock up and take the slide play out mostly when it locks into battery, then frees up for running clearance once out of battery. On a frame mounted scope, then you have to have the fit tight as you are aiming the frame and the barrel locks up on a different assembly.

I've built bullseye guns out of old military 45's that have a little slide to frame play but lock up solid when in battery and they were getting 3/4 to 1" 10 shot groups at 25 yards. On a carry gun anything around $2" or under at 25 yards is fine. reliability is #1. A 1 1/2" 50 yard gun that pukes when dirty or is ammo sensitive is no better than a hammer or brick. A 100% reliable with all ammo and shoots 2" at 25 yards gun is priceless.

------------------
Brian Bilby
Advanced Combat Pistols
www.45acp.com

 

[longbow]

I agree whole heartidly with what Brian just said in the above post. The slide to frame fit has little to do with overall acurracy of the weapon. It will have a ton to do with reliability though. The key to accuracy is a correctly fitted barrel bushing and a correctly fitted barrel to both the frame and the slide. This is where the accuracy lies.
I have owned any number of .45acp's over the past 10 years or so, when I decided that this is what I wanted to carry. These have included Kimber, Para Ordinance, Colt, Star PD and Firestar. Handsdown the BEST of them all has been the Colt CCO. Not one hiccup period, in over 2k rounds through the gun. Not mag. related or gun related or shooter related. In a word it is very non critical to shoot. It feeds anything and everything I have put through it, even lite wad cutter target loads. The barrel fit to the frame with the feet and link pin is SUPERB! It is like a bank vault. You can press on it all day till the cows come home and you will not detect the slightest downward movement at all. NONE. The bushing fit is the same. You can press all day on the bushing trying to move it up and down etc. and the same thing. 0 play. Same goes with the barrel to bushing fit. The barrel stays right where it is with no discernable play in any direction. I also have a perfectly symetrical ring worn around the barrel from shooting. This is my daily carry gun. I have owned it for a year and a half and the slightly over 2k rounds isn't alot but I do know 100% it will go bang when the trigger is pulled, and I know it won't barf if and when the need is there to use it.
This gun is light weight, accurate, 100% reliable, and feeds anything. Recoil is very managable even with the light wt. frame, and the ergonomics are superd. Great carry bevel package too. When I was looking to get a Commander sized carry gun I looked at and shot a number of Springfields, Kimbers, and Para's, along with the Sigs and Glocks. This is the one I settled on. Don't regret it one iota. Oh yea the frame and slide rattle a bit when I shake it. So what! I just know if the thing gets dirty which it does when I shoot cause I shoot alot in bunches as I don't reload, it will work. It also cost me a hundred bucks less than the Kimber lt. wt. compact I was looking at too,. Colt hit the nail on the head when they made the CCO. It never ceases to amaze me when I read gun magazine reports on how they test a Wilson, Baer etc. and they will say the gun has to be shot so many rounds to be broken in or this mag or that mag. won't work in it. BS is what I say. The gun should work anytime and everytime 100% with any round and any type of h.p. configuration as long as it is the same caliber. My Kimber Classic pretty much did but it wouldn't lock the slide back reliably at all. My first Commander(Combat) would feed and shoot everything 100% it would just tend to shoot bushings out. My Gov't model Enhanced was a great gun. Regeret letting it go. 100% just like the CCO. The others would have some sort of problem or other when shooting them. Sorry for being longwinded, but some times it never ceases to amaze me what people will settle for in a self defense handgun, just because of what they are told or sold. thanks and keep'em sharp