1911 extractor

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Mike40-11

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I have an AMT (yeah, I know) gov't model. Had a lot of feed issues early on, but did a little work. It was binding and not going into battery. The cartridge would be under the extractor hook, but the front edge of the extractor was riding against the bevel on the case. Polished everthing within an inch of its life and beveled the bottom of the extractor hook a little. That seemed to take care of it, no feed issues in the last couple hundred rounds.

However, now I'm noticing something else, don't know if it's a problem or not since I'm not by any means a 1911 expert. What I notice is, when the gun goes into battery, the breach face is not resting solidly against the barrel, but against the end of the extractor. When the barrel is fully locked up, I can slip a piece of paper between the breach face and the top edge of the barrel. The inner flat of the extractor also protrudes a bit from the breach face rather than being flush - that's where I first noticed it as it was marking the cases.

I can't see how this is good for the extractor - could it be that my extractor is just a tad long?

Also does anyone have any idea what type of replacement extractor would fit and AMT? Doesn't look quite like a GI extractor - turned rather than machined.

Thanks in advance for the input - and I know about AMTs issues (now that I have one...) but I'm not ready to give up on this thing yet!
 
AMT's get a bad rap because of iffy q/c in the specs. Once you get them sorted out they work fine. I have found that Teflon based lubes work best on AMT's.There should be a slight gap between the barrel hood and the breech face(.001 is considered ideal, production is more like .003).The ectractor sounds like it IS out of spec, the shoulder aft of the hook should not extend past the breech face. It will cause feed/ejection probs and batter the rim of the brass.A standard design extractor should work fine in place of the round one, I have replaced several with no prob's in AMT's and early Springfields.Personally, I am partial to Ed Brown extractors.
 
Put the gun into counter-battery and remove the extractor, then see how the lockup looks? Most production barrels have short extentions (hoods) for universal fit. The position of your locking lugs is probably setting the gap between the hood and the breech face on the slide, not the extractor.

If you know someone who is good at TIG welding, they can build the hood edges up and you can file it back to shape for a closer fit. The welder needs to use a chill to protect the temper of the chamber. The steel he melts on can be music wire or an old magazine spring for carbon steel barrels. SS requires a similar steel to match.

Brownells sells a gauge for measuring between the rear locking lug and the breech face to get the length of your hood fit right. The roughly 0.002" tolerance that brandx referred to is needed for a smooth slide into battery. I have done one dead-on 0.5 mill hood fit by spending many hours with high spot blue and a scraper. This was back in the early 80's when I was first learning how to accurize the 1911. It was a waste of time. The arched shape of the inside of the locking lug recesses in the slide tend to center the barrel, so not interfering with that fit is really more important. I always leave at least .002" side-to-side now.

Getting the hood length close to the breech face helps keep headspace consistant. You have to load your rounds to headspace off the bullet to take advantage of this (seat them out just enough that the back of the loaded cartridge is flush with the back of the hood when you drop a round it). This is for lead bullets, and can cut group size in half if they are soft, like swaged bullets. Jacketed bullets will raise chamber pressures if you do this. Jacketed bullets don't deform as easily as lead, so you don't get the same improvement loading them this way, anyhow. I stay with conventional O.A.L. for jacketed bullet loads.

Brownells also sells an extractor tension testing gauge, if you need to set a new one up. You could also salvage the old one by stoning the retaining notch that the firing pin stop slides into at the back of the extractor. Enlarge it in the forward direction. Take off the same amount of metal as the protrusion forward of the rear extractor surface from the breech face. This doesn't hurt anything unless you have to remove more than about 0.005". Then you have to shim the gap at the back so extraction timing doesn't get delayed. Do not, however, try to widen the hook itself or feed or extraction failures are likely.

Nick
 
I guess Nick thinks this guy is a pistolsmith so I need not comment about his problem. AMT's are difficult guns to make run. I don't weld up barrels for extractor problems, I just tune the existing extrractor or install a new one. I woiuld also address the breechface in this case and make sure it's very smooth.
 
Thanks for the input all. Looks like it is locking up on the lugs ok, not actually resting on the extractor (duh, would be kinda of hard to go into battery if it wasn't). Not really worried about the barrel hood fit, or at least not worried enough to weld on it, especially since it is stainless. I am going to try fitting the extractor a bit though. Looks like more than 5 thou out though so I guess I will have to shim or weld the firing pin retainer notch.

I have polished up the breach face as best I can, still got some hellacious tool marks but at least they're smooth. I think I could stand to chamfer the firing pin hole slightly, I can feel an occasional catch when slowly chambering manually.
 
Why do all the when a $12.00 part will solve the problem? I musts be missing something here. I have been chamfering the 45 ACP firing pin holes for 20 years and have a tool made just for that job. If you are bent on doing some work with a file, fit a new fiiring pin stop when you replace the extractor. They are about $6.00.
 
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Dave,

Honestly, I'm not following your responses here.

Nick was suggesting that the problem may not be due to the extractor, but rather that the hood is too short and the barrel is where it is due to the location of the lugs, not the extractor. Why do you then say to not fix an extractor problem by welding the barrel? Nick isn't talking about an extractor problem.

Mike then says that the firing pin hole on his rough breechface could use a chamfer. You respond with suggesting the replacement of the firing pin stop - which is located at the other end of the firing pin from Mike's problem. What am I failing to understand?
 
The firing pin stop does a two part task. It holds the firing pin in the slide. It also sets up the extractor as to where it rides in it's tunnel. If the present extractor is a tad too long, then a new part may be not work if there it's too much slop in that extractor notch. The extractor has a notch in it where it slips into the firing pin stop. If that cut is not compatible , you have a problem. A new stop can also prevent "Clocking" which can cause erratic ejection. The blue prints were not there when they slapped these SS things together and I had one that went back four times and the forth time it came back, the only original part was the slide stop. It was full of Evil Mojo! I want to thank Harry Sanford for getting me into building my own 1911's He had a lot to do with my learning the right way to build them. I don't see the barrel hood as any part of this problem as the lower lugs ,the slide stop pin , and barrel link control where the barrel rides in the frame and slide. I would bet that the lower lugs are beat up because of a bad link and pin. My barrel blew up in the middle of a bowling pin match.
 
I don't see the barrel hood as any part of this problem as the lower lugs ,the slide stop pin , and barrel link control where the barrel rides in the frame and slide.
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Actually, Dave, those things only determine where the barrel is in regards to the frame. The slide position is determined by the upper lugs (when in battery) and the hood (or cartridge head if the hood is too short) time the barrel into the upper lugs. The slide and barrel are not connected any other way.


To put it another way, the barrel does rise into the upper lugs until pushed from the back by the breech face. If you were radically change the placement of hood and the rest of the chamber mouth, the slide would push the barrel forward too late, and the upper lugs wouldn't mesh (the slide would be too far forward).
 
Did you people not read Mike40's first post?
The extractor is sticking out too far past the breechface, probably causing his feed problem.The barrel hood gap is a non-issue.
 
I am at a loss here. I have read the original post several times. He states that the extractor is not right. That it Sticks Out and the cases are being dinged a little and that is what brought this to his attention. He said he addressed the extractor to some degree, but did not do enough to it. He further states that the barrel hood is not quite touching the top of the breechface and thinks that could be another problem. He asks us if this is a problem. It would be extremely rare for a barrel hood to touch the breechface in a factory gun. I have seen some pretty good gaps here with barrels that shoot better than their owners can hold them. It should have a space about .001-.003 between the hood and the breechface. That would be in a fitted barrel like an EZ fit Kart. A AMT 1911? Who Knows? The fit on all of the parts in mine was the worst anyone had ever seen.
The slide stop pin controls the top end. The Lower Lugs of the barrel are fitted to that Pin Hole. The upper lugs run free after that pin jerks them down when the gun is fired and if it were not for the slide stop pin, the slide would make a big dent in your face. It controls the lock up when the slide lets the barrel go up into battery the last 1/4th inch of travel before it is ready for the next shot. The barrel hood to breechface gap does have a lot to do with headspace as Nick mentioned. That is another subject. 45 ACP 1911's are very forgiving and will fire thousands of rounds with a no go gauge headspace. As the cases get smaller (10mm, 40 S&W,9mm) it gets more critical and headspace becomes really important. That is a subject that I do not wish to get into.
Bottom Line? He has one of the worst factory 1911's ever made and sold. No matter what he does, it will still be an AMT Stainless Steel Problem. End of story.
 
Dave, I guess I was confused by this statement:
I don't weld up barrels for extractor problems,
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Since, as you say, they aren't related problems.


Seperate from the AMT issue, I was just making the point that the barrel hood is the device that times the slide to the barrel when the action is closing. It doesn't have to be, but something around the breech end must get pushed forward as the slide closes on it. If not the hood, then what? The barrel doesn't just decide to hop up into upper lug engagement - it is pushed forward by the slide via the hood.
 
Fascinating

Quote:

>>...pin jerks them down when the gun is fired and if it were not for the slide stop pin, the slide would make a big dent in your face....<<
**********************

Wow is me! And here all this time I thought that the impact surfaces in the slide and frame with the guide rod flange sandwiched between'em stopped the slide in recoil. I guess we learn somethin' every blessed day...

I bow to superior knowledge....
 
Talkin'

Why...Whatevah do you mean? :confused:
It was a sincere compliment!

Okay...I'll go. I got called in to see a thread...again. I rarely post here unless invited anyway. Be well!
 
Compliment? Don't add insult to injury.

Everyone here, including Dave, knows that slide won't come flying off if the pin is gone. Whether Dave was making a joke, or just forgot for the moment doesn't mean the world's most condescending 1911 "expert" needs to make a field trip over here to set anyone straight. He and anyone else doesn't need to answer to you when inaccurate.

You seem to forget that since no one has ever been allowed to tell you when you're wrong, Tuner.
 
It was an attempt at my bar room humor and Handy was smart enough to catch on. I tend to forget that some of us don't see the humor that is intended , and perhaps not recognized. Of course the lower part of the slide at the recoil spring plug tunnel where it meets the frame keeps it away from your face. I was trying to make a point and failed to do so.

Please don't be too harsh with Tuner, Handy. Posting on forums is his whole life and we want to keep him happy. We also know that one of his little storm troopers called him over and I set him up, too. My apoplogies. Right now I have too many other things going on to care about these two.

Let me try to clear up my comment about welding up barrels. I wil be 73 soon , but even when I started working on 1911's for other people about 20+ years ago, I never welded up barrels. I am not a welder. I am not sure what heat does to them and prefer to fit a new part as opposed to taking a chance on ruining the hard factor with an application of real hot heat. I have had lower lugs welded up twice for my own use. One time they lasted 4-5 rounds, and the other time was successful so far in a gun I hardly ever shoot. That is a 50 % rate of return, as I see it. I would never put a welded up barrel in a clients gun, period. I consider that crude and have posted pictures here relative to that kind of work which Mr. Bob Hunter defended, but did not change my mind one little bit. Most of the barrels that I have seen that needed some help were very poor to start with, and common sense told me they were not going to be much better after being welded and re machined or filed on for a few hours. I prefered to spend the time fitting a brand new barrel of known qualities witha a good warranty if I did my part right. I also did not see why Nick would even mention that old fashioned stuff in this thread because it had nothing to do with the problem at hand, as I saw it. Quality Custom Barrels came in and welding went out when they did for me. Just because you can do something, doesn't make it a good thing. It is just a thing that can be done. I know many smiths who still use welders and can re machine things and they work just peachy keen, but that is not what I am all about. I even own a small welder, but never use it. I just like to say I have one. It was $25.00 at the Pawn Shop and was a brand new Buzz Box and I like the color of it. My buddy Leo can weld and he is in charge if it now.
The upper lugs control where the barrel rides when in battery. If you take your 1911 down, place the barrel in the slide with the bushing installed, press the barrel up into the grooves in the slide where the upper lugs ride and try to push the barrel forward and backward, you will see that the hood does not have much to do with that function. It will almost aways come and go slightly away from the breechface and rarely touches it. You can insert an empty case while you are doing this and check the area that the rim headspaces in, also. The rear end of the extractor hook should be flush with the breechface and the front of the hook should almost touch the case. That is what it looks like if well done. I hope I have not made the waters more muddy than they were, Handy.
 
Dave,

I understand what you're saying about the lugs IN battery. But the hood is what gets it there when the slide is closing. The slide goes forward, hits the hood, the barrel runs forward and up, meeting the slide lugs because the hood insured that the slide wouldn't be to far forward when the barrel rose to meet it.


I'm not saying that a little play between hood and slide is a killer. But the hood does play a role in the correct initial mating of the upper lugs. They would not time together if the back of the barrel was way too long or too short. That is all.
 
Dave Sample: "... if it were not for the slide stop pin, the slide would make a big dent in your face."

Dave, since most pistols are held a arms length, that clearly implies the slide leaving the frame in a rearward direction, toward the face in which it will leave a dent, as in making contact at some velocity. - sensop

1911 Tuner: "Wow is me! And here all this time I thought that the impact surfaces in the slide and frame with the guide rod flange sandwiched between'em stopped the slide in recoil. I guess we learn somethin' every blessed day...

I bow to superior knowledge...."

Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing at all. - sensop

Handy: "Geez, guy, go away. Don't you have people to talk down to on the board you "moderate"?"

Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing. - sensop

1911 Tuner: "Why...Whatevah do you mean? It was a sincere compliment!"

Well, actually it was sarcasm, at least as perceived by this reader, but that doesn't violate any forum rule of which I'm aware. - sensop

Handy: "Compliment? Don't add insult to injury.

Everyone here, including Dave, knows that slide won't come flying off if the pin is gone. Whether Dave was making a joke, or just forgot for the moment doesn't mean the world's most condescending 1911 "expert" needs to make a field trip over here to set anyone straight. He and anyone else doesn't need to answer to you when inaccurate.

You seem to forget that since no one has ever been allowed to tell you when you're wrong, Tuner."

Here we go directly to an unveiled personal attack, which most definitely does violate forum rules. - sensop

Dave Sample: "It was an attempt at my bar room humor and Handy was smart enough to catch on. I tend to forget that some of us don't see the humor that is intended , and perhaps not recognized. Of course ... <snip> ...

Please don't be too harsh with Tuner, Handy. Posting on forums is his whole life and we want to keep him happy. We also know that one of his little storm troopers called him over and I set him up, too. My apoplogies. Right now I have too many other things going on to care about these two."

Dave Sample, here's my take: Your post was not an attempt at humor of any kind. You simply misspoke. Handy was not smart enough to "catch on", he simply made an excuse for you, apparently spurred by some history between him and 1911 Tuner. You further walk a very narrow line, in your reference to 1911 Tuner's "little storm troopers". Not quite a personal attack, but I think you were short of that by accident. The "I set him up" part is disturbing. 'Sounds a little like, "I knew that!" On the other hand, setting someone up is akin to "trolling", which is another verboten practice on TFL. -sensop

Too bad an interesting topic like this gets caught in personalities and bickering because the rest of us would like to hear solutions and different possibilities of the cause of extractor problems, and the different approaches to determining the cause is a real education.

There's enough blame to go around here. Too bad. Some PMs will be sent out.

Closed for uncivil, arrogant, condescending, un-TFL-like behavior to the detriment of those who wanted to hear more.

Thanks from all the rest of us.

CLOSED.
 
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