1911: Best Caliber For Defense When A Giant Reptile is Knawling On Ya?

E

EQUALIZER

New member
My work has placed me in predicaments when I've had some close calls w/large reptiles. So far I've been fortunate enough to retain all body parts and have sustained little more than severe brusing and scars. There are a couple of times when a tool such as pepper spray(?), baton, knife, or handgun would have been considered to save my butt. Ie. Giving meds (injections that sting) to a 12'+ nasty tempered Reticulated Python by myself, while it struck at my face, fortuneately blocked by plexiglass...sheesh!.....Adult American Alligator shaking me by the forearm like a rag doll. etc....

In order of importance, want to build a 1911 for:
a) Defense against big reptiles with an attitude. Need big power. Very low penetration (8-10" ideal). Will double as defense against 2 legged......almost said "vipers" but won't degrade ANY reptile to the status of a violent felon. Therefore, handloads are -out- for carry :(...legalities :rolleyes:

b) Bulls eye and pin competition: Strickly non-official fun shoots (setting up range for friends and family).

c) I am set up for reloading 9mm, so I'd save lots of $ on casting (?$) and reloading components ($100+,-) on my Lee LoadMaster if I'd go with *9X23 Win. Unfortuneately Win is the only co. that I know of who makes factory defensive ammo...ONLY ONE LOAD DAGNABBIT!

**38 Super is a thought, but can't find factory loads and ballistics. From what I remember, a long time ago, it wasn't much hotter than +p 9mm. Cheap reloading since same bullets/primers/powders/cheap brass can be used. Just need dies and brass I think.

***40 Super: Think it shoots 135gr at 1800fps w/quick expansion and low penetration option. Problem, can't use carbide dies, and need to keep close eye on length and treat as rifle cartridge.

****45 Super: Has same cost as 40 Super, but can practice w/ACP.

Sorry to rant, but I'd appreciate any comments on these with the above options in mind. I'm even considering sticking w/9mm, since Triton makes some hot low penetration loads, but the 1911 platform seems kind of large for the 9's, esp. when might (?) need lots of quick stopping power.

PS: Will likely go with a gas delayed blow back system that I'm told works best w/higher pressure rounds (ie. 9X23).

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited September 05, 2000).]
 
Alligators? Pythons?
Wussys.

Out here in Utah - we got the Utah Raptor... Take that Gator and make it 6 feet tall - make it hunt in packs...
make it as fast as a cheetah...
And give it claws sharper than Luke's lightsaber - and make it strong enough to gut an AT-AT...

Now - THERE is a REPTILE!
 
Yeah, but they all migrated to France and just became wussies like all the rest. :)

Ouch - that was below the belt!

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 06, 2000).]
 
What you need is a Glock 30 with 185+P Georgia Arms ammo, yes indeed.
(This ammo does 1160 from a 1911, 1125 from a G21, and 1050 from a G30)
Glock 30 is compact and accurate enough for pins and fires a big fat gator stopper and is highly rust resistant. Plus you can wrestle a gator in the mud and still depend on a Glock if you start losing.
 
I'd suggest a 357 mag, but a revolver is short on cartridges and kind of hard to reload in (shall we call it) a "fluid" situation. 357 Sig lets you use same components as 9mm other than cases and dies, and should be available in frames introduced for the 40 cal before the ban, allowing you a chance to pick up a hicap 40 mag which might let you tune it to be reliable loaded with 357 sig.

I know they stopped new production sales to civillians of full auto, but did they leave the "any other weapon" category ( short barrelled rifle/shotgun ) still available ala the whippet guns and auto-burglars in 20 ga?
 
For questions on what to use against large reptiles, please do a search for advice that was given to FUD.
 
Only inexperience and has fear, that talks much against a 1911 .45ACP.

In stopping a two legged mamals effectively, then you need at least .45 and higher calibers. The other lower calibers just fine but there is no much comparison to the .45 cartridges if it comes to pistol no matter what ballistic test being made. The .45 still to be loved and well used by most shooters. But any one can have their own choices as everybody has different training and fears.

I carry both 9mm and .45 - but I have my own belief that the .45 is a good player for self defense or for whatever usage be it for 2 or 4 legged creature. The americans (defense dept.) is not foolish to choose the .45 ACP among all other contractor (during the selection) if not a potent cartridge.
 
Observer- Thanks for the "observation". ;) The 45 in +p velocities and 45 Super (same thing, but faster) is probably my first choice, yet still undecided. I'm spoiled by how inexpensive it is to load 9mm after the initial investment, so have been a little reluctant to have to gear up for bigger cal. as much as I love the 45. After weighing everybodies' opinions and making an educated decision, I w/bite the bullet and go to whatever is best.

Buzz Knox- I was waiting for that one. hehe :)

Rob- Will do search as soon as I finish this post.

Rusty- I like the 357 SIG, but if I'm going to the extra trouble of a bottle-neck cartridge and plain steel dies, I'll go for broke and get a 40 Super. Thanks for the suggestion, though. It can pack a punch out of the little P239! From the reviews, I remember that its a deep penetrator, mainly dvpt for LE use.

HiCap- I like Glocks and think that Gaston is a genius. Sounds like a good choice, but I opted for a 1911, which is pretty close grip to my SIG, and w/be my new one for daily carry.

George and Mal- Wish those Raptors were still around. Would love to educate the public about them. Any more, about the biggest dinosaurs left are Salt Water Crocs and Komodo Dragons. Some day, I may be raising some. Hope to never need to test stopping power of a pistol cartridge on a Salty. :eek: You won't find them in France, however. Our own dinosaur, the American Alligator, is very fond of French Poodles. I'm told that they are one of their favorites on the menu when tourists come to Florida.

Guys- I think geletan tests results w/the above choices I gave would be, (not perfect), but useful. I want something that w/violently expand and stay in the body of the critter. It may be a public area where overpenetration would be a concern. I can get Tritons 115gr 9mm, but want something more powerful, yet fun to shoot on weekends. Anybody got a link to jello test results w/the above?

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
Hey!

Well, I have just had my first experience lately practicing with .45acp 230gr +P+

Closest factory ammo is Corbon 45+P (230gr at 940fps)

Now THATS a round. My step father and I went shooting the other day; him with his 2" Ruger sp101 (.357mag) and me with my .45 USP shooting 230gr +P+ at 960+fps.

Aside from the visible 18" fireball, the gun bucked like a racehorse. Now I'm not recoil shy by any means. I actually like firing my *&* 342ti with .38sp +P, and its only an 11oz gun!

But, WOW. after only 30 rounds I had developed a flinch. Never had it happen before. Normally I am cool as a cucumber dropping a hammer on a practice dud round.

Not to say you cant handle a .45acp 230gr +P+ style round. Got to admit, they go BOOM!

But, as a proponent of reload for the presures you shoot in self defense, I would suggest that you give a +P+ or a "super" round a try before you commit.

Have fun!

J.T.

as usual, FWIW, IMHO, YMMV and all that
 
EQUALIZER

After talking to you on the phone this morning and reading your requirements here I'm going to make some suggestions.

If I understand you want a "multi-purpose" round to be used for defense (reptile, human), can be used for sports, will produce massive wound cavities (defense) with a low likelihood of liability should it exit the target and you want it on a 1911 frame.


OK, lets look at the choices of cartridges.

You have the .45, .45 Super, .40 Super, .400 CorBon, .38 Super, etc.

IMO you can get what you are looking for with a standard 1911. This would save the costs of getting a gun and having it changed (unless you get a factory 1911 that one of the manufactures is making in the other calibers).

Secondly a .45 ACP isn't any more trouble to reload for then a 9mm. All you need is a set of dies and possibly a different power. This would also go in line with your using it for competition. Many a Bulls Eye and Pin shoot has been won by the .45 ACP.

Now, for your defensive purposes. As I see it your choices are the following types of ammo… Fragmenting (MagSafe type), Controlled Separation (Quik-Shok), and conventional Hollow Points.

The Fragmenting types while producing large wound tracts do not do perform consistently. If you are using them against a heavy barrier target (gator) I do not think you will get the results you are looking for with tissue disruption. This is just an educated guess as we have never used fragmenting ammo against gators.

With Conventional Hollow Points you will get the tissue damage and penetration your looking for however, depending on the target you may get over penetration with the bullet exiting the target. This brings up the liability issue. If it exits it may or may not have enough energy left to seriously damage a secondary target.

The last bullet design would be the Quik-Shok, which I feel would fit the defense requirement you’ve stated. Our .230 grain will penetrate to a minimum of 9” in bare 10% Ordnance Gel… slightly deeper with barriers. As I told you on the phone it acts like a conventional HP for the first few inches of travel (entering & expanding) creating a massive temp wound cavity (cavitation) at which point it separates into three projectiles. Each of these projectiles veer off from the initial wound tract and produces it’s own temp wound cavity. Where these 3 temp cavities overlap and btwn them the tissue, if not destroyed, is severely damaged. It also gives you an extra edge if you shot is misplaced on hitting something vital.

If it is impacting a “thin” target (shoulder, 6” – 8” snake) and the segments exit the target they will have expended the majority of their energy in that target, will be of smaller mass then a normal bullet, and will not be going on the same path as the shot originated. All this lessens the likelihood of seriously damaging a secondary target.

Wrapping this all up I guess I’m recommending a Factory 1911 in .45 ACP loaded with .230 gr Quik-Shok for defensive purposes (which, FWIW is what I carry). The .45 ACP will also allow you to reload, with little difference from what you’re reloading for now, to be competitive.
 
Glock 20. It's 15 rounds of 10mm for those newer folks.

Ben

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Triton Cartridge,

Thanks alot for the info. I tend to agree with you about the ammo. Many say that good ammo can't make up for poor shot placement. This is normally true. However, I believe that when you've already been "shot", rather hit by the crushing power and immense pain of a big crocodilian, the more tissue disruption (hydrostatic shock), and wider the path- the better.

Trying to find the vitals for an accurate shot while getting thrown back and forth like a rotweiler shaking a tug toy, or getting ones balance while in the midst of a death roll is not realistic. So, I think the ballistics of the Quick Shock sounds like what I need.

I know of one zoo keeper who was hit by a big wild reticulated python and had to be rescued by a coworker stabbing it w/a large knife. From all of the reported damage it sustained and eventually recovered from, after surgery, I started realizing that a knife should be only one of several options. There is a place for a handgun in a wild animal keeper's arsonal.

EVERYONE:
Correction to my original post about the 40 Super. Carbide dies are available for reloading. If memory serves, and correct me if I'm wrong-its been a tough day, RCBS makes the dies. Not sure about the velocity on that 135gr. Thought I saw that on the Triton web site, but may need to stand corrected there as well.

Funny thing I've noticed in working with the big snakes. On a couple of occasions when Rhonda the Anaconda went after the same meal as her sister Anna, and I've had to separate them after they were entwined- I've had the most success with the ..............now get this...........90% Rubbing alcohol sprayed on the face lightly with a mister. I don't think it will make major in IPSC or win any pin shoots, but it got the job done that time.
 
mmmm no time to fiddle with a safty when wrestling a big snkae... snake shot seems usesless when the animal is as big around as your leg..

Charter arms bulldog in 44 special and stainless.. or glock 30 full of hydrashocks and a NY trigger... one of those taurus Ti revolvers in 45LC with a hard cast swchp... or maybe a good old s&w airwieght full of nyclads.. any one of those should perforate a reptile at CLOSE range.

(personally for a Utah Raptor I'd want an Evans 470 nitro express double and a culling belt full of shells or a full auto BAR)


In a 1911 I'd want a DA lower carried with the safety off/hammer down stoked with 230 gr hydra shocks or 185 gr silvertips.

but tarzan managed all those big snakes and crocs with just a knife in his teeth...

unk! tantor unk!

[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited September 08, 2000).]
 
Dr. Rob,

Tarzan's method of wrestleing Alligators and snakes left both of his hands free. I've been there, done that, however not in the FL everglades, "amazon" studio setting. The knife in the teeth is too hard on my delicate dental work, so I don't carry a knife that way. The method of using two hands to control the most dangerous side w/the teeth is most important. When considering a handgun, this is purely as a LAST resort. That knife in Tarzan's teeth was for such an occasion.....IF he lost control of the head and was going down for the last count. I never want to kill an animal I've raised for education and preservation of the species, and w/only do so if all other means are exhausted. A big long fixed blade knife w/maybe be a better option depending on situation.

Believe it or not, I tried playing Tarzan today and actually climbed a tree and swung from it like I did as a kid. It was fun........that is - until I hit the ground. Then I realized that my body changed somehow since then....... and I aint no Tarzan. -OUCH!!! :eek:

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited September 08, 2000).]
 
Only problem is where to carry it w/out scaring public.

With a big salty, I don't think a handgun is adequate. I'll need to make that choice when/if I get one. There's ways to do it safely.

If I ever went fishing and got caught by a big Salty, I'd want a friend nearby with enough gun to shoot me and put me down fast. ;)

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited September 11, 2000).]
 
Talked to John Koppel today of http://www.proload.com/ . I had some questions for him and asked for his opinion about the current topic. He believed that the 45ACP Proloads in a medium weight round would be the appropriate antivenin for a big snake bite. I learned a lot talking to him and plan on trying out his ammo in 9mm for now.

The 9x23 would be very easy to get into since I'm already set up for 9mm, so I don't need anything but brass to get started reloading. However, the round only has one manufacturer that I know of.....Winchester. It's a shame its a dying breed that has one manufacturer for ammo, (and only two loads at that), and no production guns to keep it from becomming extinct.

Same goes with the 45 Super. The few alternatives that are comparable to the Super are bottle necked. Why go through the extra trouble when there was already a good thing on the market?

Worse case schenario: Gator on one arm :eek: / 1911 on the other. What caliber/load do you want it stoked with?

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[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited September 12, 2000).]
 
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