1905 .455 New Service Eley

S

Salvage Sailor

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Aloha Everyone,

I have a .455 New Service Eley, completely original with British (or Canadian) proof markings, July 4 1905 patent. I also have the original brown English leather service issue holster for the Revolver manufactured by Hobson & Sons, London. It was purchased by my Grandfather in the Straits Settlements (Singapore) in 1931 and being a packrat, he even kept the bill of sale & his firearms permit issued in Singapore.

Does anyone have a reference for the military proof marks? I'd like to verify if it is 'British' or 'Canadian'.

On the left side of the receiver is a crown with U4 over E stamped on it. There are also cross pennants on the receiver, between the Colt grips, and on the cylinder.

There is also a VP in a triangle just forward of the trigger guard on the left side of the receiver.

It has a low 5 digit serial number 648XX

Any help with an ID would be appreciated

Anchor's Aweigh
 
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If it's British, it wil have a simple Broad Arrow. If it's Canadian issue, it will be either a "C" with a Broad Arrow after it or a "C" with the Broad Arrow inside the "C".

Post some pics and it should be easy to confirm.
 
If it's in good shape, and hasn't been cut for use with .45 ACP ammo, it probably has considerable collectors value.

This is likely one of the guns that Colt made for Britain during WW I. S&W also made guns for Britain during that time.

But, it could easily have been made earlier, as well. I think Colt had pre-WW I contracts to supply New Service revolvers in .455 to Canada for its police forces, the same as Winchester supplied rifles to their police.
 
Probably pre-WWI Service Issue

Aloha Mike,

The revolver is in excellent shape, completely original. I'm thinking it's British service issue manufactured pre-WWI, possibly for service in India or the Western Frontier.

The serial number could be an early WWI issue (5 digit), and the patent date is 1905. I looked around the web and found a number 47XXX that was made in 1914 for the US Postal Service. I also found an identical revolver on the web with the s/n 624XX (mine is 648XX - how's that for horseshoes) also purported to be manufactured in 1914.

http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=2873

This revolver also noted the '1905 patent date and the early flat latch' - take a look at the photos for this revolver, it's a dead ringer to mine. The only difference is that there is also crescent moon stamp beneath my barrell, but no lettering. Otherwise, it's identical. You can see the triangle VP in the photos too.

Jeff - regarding the 'broad arrow' and/or a 'C'

There are no 'C' markings anywhere on the revolver, only crossed pennants in three (3) places. The 'broad arrow' is above the crown, with 'U4' beneath that, then 'E' (see below)

broad arrow
crown
U4
E

So it's most likely a Colt .455 Eley made for British issue in India, that ended up in Singapore between the wars. I'll try to get some photos posted of mine.

Anchor's Aweigh
 
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Most likely it is British. They received a higher # then the Canadians. A number of these came back to the US after the war and were converted to .45Colt.

I picked up this Canadian New Service a few years back.

newservice.jpg


You can clearly see the C Broad Arrow behind the trigger. This one was converted to .45Colt by having the cylinder reamed through.
 
.455 Cartridges

Aloha Everyone,

Along with the Colt revolver, my grandfather also still had some original rounds.

Two (2) boxes of unopened British Army issue cartridges, and some loose rounds from the same shipment.

On the cardboard boxes:

H.2304
12
CARTRIDGES
REVOLVER
.455 INCH MK VI
(Broad Arrow)
I.S.S.A.

Then ink stamped on the boxes is:

31 12 42 Z E

Which would be the lot date of 1942

The rounds are stamped

K42
VIZ

My grandfather was a manager for the Goodyear Rubber plantations in Malaya, who escaped ahead of the Japanese invasion. This revolver was his personal sidearm and he brought it out of Singapore in 1942 when he returned to the states.

He is the hunter in center of the photo below posted on my website, taken after bagging a Jaguar in Malaya, mid thirties. The Colt in in the holster on his hip.

http://www.historic-battles.com/ForumSoftware/index.php?topic=1549.0

Anchor's Aweigh

PS - The hunting rifle is a Manlicher which is also still in the family.
 
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Sounds like you have a great collection of history to go with the revolver! :)

Can't see the picture unless you register at that sight. :(
 
I'm not sure, but I don't think that the British let any contracts to any American companies for handguns prior to commencement of hostilities in August 1914. I believe the first contracts S&W got were in 1915, probably the same for Colt, but I may well be wrong about that.

It could easily, though, have been a personal firearm purchased by an officer prior to the war.

As for the rounds, the IV means Mark 4, and the Z means that they are loaded with a cut flake nitrocellulose powder instead of the tried and true cordite.
 
Guests....

Aloha Jeff,

Thanks for the tip.....I had the 'view attachments' setting turned off for guests.

Take a look now - viewable to guests

http://www.historic-battles.com/ForumSoftware/index.php?topic=1549.0

Anchor's Aweigh


PS - feel free to register, I run the Historic-Battles.com site - no spam, no hassles, strictly moderated. We also have a Weapons & Hardware board on the forum.

PPS - thanks for the ammo info Mike.....the mark is MK VI for "mark six" (sorry for the typo above, now corrected). Not familiar with the properties of cut flake nitrocellulose, though I do know from personal experience from last firing this revolver in 1974 that the ammo is very smoky and spits out quite a power burn at close range.
 
You know what I'd like to have?

I'd like to have your Grandfather's rifle.

From the bolt handle and other attributes it looks like a Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporter. Definitely not one of their big magnums, probably in 8 or 9mm.

One of the finest frigging rifles ever made, bar none.
 
When you talk to, or read about, men traveling the world to adventurous places in the period before WW II you learn that firearms were common and just about anything might show up. How about a 1930's gold miner in South America packing a 7.5" Colt New Service in .44 Russian? Or a bulldozer operator working on an island in the 1940s with a Thompson sub-machinegun slung over the back of the seat to ward off machete-wielding natives who would kill you for the change in your pocket. Your grandfather may have traded with some retired British officer for this pistol.

I am amazed at its good shape considering it was actually used under harsh conditions.
 
The Manlicher

Aloha Mike,

Yep, that rifle is a real sweetheart. I don't recall the exact model, but it is an 8mm. The stock is hand tooled and the action is very smooth. It came with a large leather case, and a scope too.

Anchor's Aweigh
 
Photo of Manlicher Rifle and .455 Colt New Service

Aloha Everyone,

Been quite a while since I've checked this topic and the photo links are not valid anymore.

The attached photograph is the one we were discussing, taken in Malaya circa mid-1930's. The .455 is on my Grandfathers hip in the holster and he just bagged the cat with the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. The rifle is still in the family in excellent condition.

There ya go....
 

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The markings on the gun are British military. The crossed pennants are the military proof mark and the broad arrow is the military property mark. The U4 is the mark of the inspector (I have no idea of his name) and the E indicates the gun was accepted and proved at Enfield. If it was sent to Singapore or India, it was sent or taken there by the British, not by Colt.

The VP is Colt's own proof mark (Verified Proof). Possibly because of their reluctance to put any competitor's name on their guns, Colt called the .455 Webley the ".455 Eley"; Eley, of course, made cartridges and so was not a competitor of Colt.

Jim
 
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Additional photo

...and here's the other photo of the hunting party including the .455 rig.
 

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An 8mm Mannlicher Schoenauer was likely the model of 1908 in 8x56 MS.
Maybe a model of 1910 which was available in 8x57 Mauser.
 
Savage, it looks like the Smoking Man (X-Files reference) carried a serious knife. I'd sure like to see what that one actually is but that won't happen unless he gave to your grandfather.

Big bowie knife? Some kind of kukri? Belt sized machete? Malaysian kris? We will never know.

Bart Noir
 
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