I just acquire a 1903 that looks like the one used in "Saving Private Ryan", the front of the rifle is cut and the rear sights had been cut off and done to accept scope. The Bore is clean with no rust or pitting showing with 2line rifling , also the trigger is very light (I think 2-3 lbs). On the end of the Barrel it say 9-43. It's in super shape. Is there anything I need to check before heading to the range? Is this a safe gun to shoot? I will add more once I find if it is a A1 or A3. Any comments is appreciative.
1903 Sniper??? or sportorized
- Thread starter Bongos
- Start date
Describe your scope and please share the markings on the receiver.
Two types of sniper rifles were used in Saving Private Ryan. The first was a 1903A4 which had a M81 (Lyman Alaska) scope with crosshairs. It should have been a M73B (Weaver 330). The scope was mounted using a Redfield Jr. spanning across the receiver.
The second scoped rifle which was used when they moved inland was a USMC Sniper with a Unertl 8X scope. This was a target scope which was about 2' long which was mounted on the barrel of the rifle.
Two types of sniper rifles were used in Saving Private Ryan. The first was a 1903A4 which had a M81 (Lyman Alaska) scope with crosshairs. It should have been a M73B (Weaver 330). The scope was mounted using a Redfield Jr. spanning across the receiver.
The second scoped rifle which was used when they moved inland was a USMC Sniper with a Unertl 8X scope. This was a target scope which was about 2' long which was mounted on the barrel of the rifle.
Hi Gary,
Where does it say 03-A4?, on the front of the receiver, it say 03-A and then the screw for the mount is in the way, so I can't see. The Ser# 40547XX, The Barrel says RA 9-43 with a symbol of a torch. It did not come with a scope, though when I saw it earier, it had a old weaver.. The owner said he needed the scope for something else. Please, I hope this helps.
Where does it say 03-A4?, on the front of the receiver, it say 03-A and then the screw for the mount is in the way, so I can't see. The Ser# 40547XX, The Barrel says RA 9-43 with a symbol of a torch. It did not come with a scope, though when I saw it earier, it had a old weaver.. The owner said he needed the scope for something else. Please, I hope this helps.
The receiver markings on factory conversions had "split" receiver markings. That is, rather than having the markings run across from left to right, they were parallel with the receiver. Thus, on original snipers, the "U.S. Remington Model 03-A3" would be on the left side of the receiver, just above the gas port. The serial # itself would be on the right side. There were no "03-A4" markings that I know of.
Another modification was to concave the bolt handle to allow clearance from the scope when the handle was raised.
Turning to the serial # and the rifle barrel markings, RA (Rock Island Armory) were used on 03-A4 which ran from Ser#Z4,000,000-Z4,002,490. Other serial #s include #3,407,088 - 3,427,087 and 4,992,001 - 4,999,045.
As you know, the front sights were not added and milling marks may be found on the barrel of the 03-A4.
Mind you, there may have been conversions done at levels lesser than armory. I know of one fellow who recently assembled his own and then sold it for about $700 to some unsuspecting buyer.
Concerning the scope, I don't think the Weaver K4 is original to the WWII 03-A4. The scope M73B1 (Weaver Model 330) featured a 7/8 inch tube as did the Lyman Alaskan and its military version, the M81 (sun shade and crosshair) and M82 (sun shade and post & crosshair). The final scope authorized was the M84 which was used predominantly on the M1D Garand. The Weaver K4 is the first post war American scope which featured a 1" body - simply too large for the existing rings.
BTW, the USMC version had the rear scope base on the receiver and not exclusively on the barrel.
Another modification was to concave the bolt handle to allow clearance from the scope when the handle was raised.
Turning to the serial # and the rifle barrel markings, RA (Rock Island Armory) were used on 03-A4 which ran from Ser#Z4,000,000-Z4,002,490. Other serial #s include #3,407,088 - 3,427,087 and 4,992,001 - 4,999,045.
As you know, the front sights were not added and milling marks may be found on the barrel of the 03-A4.
Mind you, there may have been conversions done at levels lesser than armory. I know of one fellow who recently assembled his own and then sold it for about $700 to some unsuspecting buyer.
Concerning the scope, I don't think the Weaver K4 is original to the WWII 03-A4. The scope M73B1 (Weaver Model 330) featured a 7/8 inch tube as did the Lyman Alaskan and its military version, the M81 (sun shade and crosshair) and M82 (sun shade and post & crosshair). The final scope authorized was the M84 which was used predominantly on the M1D Garand. The Weaver K4 is the first post war American scope which featured a 1" body - simply too large for the existing rings.
BTW, the USMC version had the rear scope base on the receiver and not exclusively on the barrel.
Harley Nolden
Staff In Memoriam
Bongos:
This might help identify your rifle. As indicated the 03-A3 was mostly stamped parts. The barrels on the sniper 03's was marked with a star on the muzzle, indicating they had been "Star Gauged" for barrel smoothness. Air gauges took over sometime later.
1903A3:
Originally introduced in May of 1942 for use in WWII. It basically consisted of improvements to simplify mass production. It features an aperture sight and various small parts that were fabricated from stamping, this includes the trigger guard, floor plate and barrel band. It was mfg’d by Remington and Smith Corona.
U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30 M1903A1:
In December of 1929 the stock design was changed from the straight stock to a pistol grip stock. The fore-end was also modified by removing the finger grooves. The buttplate was checkered to give better support on the shoulder, and the trigger was modified with serrations to prevent slipping of the trigger finger.
I don't think the "Star Gauged" barrels were 2 groove, but 4 groove. If my memory serves, this was also a cut in mfg costs.
HJN
This might help identify your rifle. As indicated the 03-A3 was mostly stamped parts. The barrels on the sniper 03's was marked with a star on the muzzle, indicating they had been "Star Gauged" for barrel smoothness. Air gauges took over sometime later.
1903A3:
Originally introduced in May of 1942 for use in WWII. It basically consisted of improvements to simplify mass production. It features an aperture sight and various small parts that were fabricated from stamping, this includes the trigger guard, floor plate and barrel band. It was mfg’d by Remington and Smith Corona.
U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30 M1903A1:
In December of 1929 the stock design was changed from the straight stock to a pistol grip stock. The fore-end was also modified by removing the finger grooves. The buttplate was checkered to give better support on the shoulder, and the trigger was modified with serrations to prevent slipping of the trigger finger.
I don't think the "Star Gauged" barrels were 2 groove, but 4 groove. If my memory serves, this was also a cut in mfg costs.
HJN
700PSS Shooter
New member
The M1903A4 sniper rifles did not have star guaged barrels. They were no different than the normal M1903A3 -- no tuning, no accurizing. In addition, if the front sight cuts show ANY evidence of a sight EVER being mounted, it is not an original M1903A4, but should be assumed a counterfeit UNLESS it has DCM release papers or Springfield Armory verifiable documentation. All M1903A4s had the split receiver markings.
The RA barrel marking is for Remington Arms. Rock Island (RIA barrel markings)ceased M1903 production in 1918 and all parts on hand were tranferred to Springfirld Armory or other rework facilities. The RIA receivers, both marked and unmarked went to Springfield. When Springfield could not meet expected demand for Garands, and the War Dept. felt it needed additional rifles, the RIA tooling was shipped to Remington Arms. Very early M1903 Remingtons are identical to late RIA M1903s.
To speed production, Remington suggested modifications to the M1903. These were approved and became the M1903 (modified) to collectors. These have the round rear sight bases without the lightening cuts. In a further mover to simplify production Remington again proposed to modify the M1903 with many stamped parts and 2 groove barrels. Testing by the military showed they were servicable and the design was adopted as the M1903A3. Smith-Corona (SC barrels) also manufactured the M1903A3. The A3 actually has a better battle sight. Some early SC rifles had 6 groove barrels. Some Remington replacement barrels were 4 groove.
Marine/Unertl sniper rifles are very rare advanced collector items and if encountered, should be documented given the well over $3000 plus price tag. I have only ever seen 2. Only one was documented. The Marine rifles were based upon M1903 National Match rifles with star guaged barrels. These rifles have been counterfeited as have most US sniper rifles. These are just harder to counterfeit due to the rarity of the parts needed.
Before you invest the money in any M1903, especially the more specialized variants like the sniper rifles, National Match versions, NRA/DCM sales rifles, Springfield Sporters, or the .22 variants, buy the Col. William Brophy book "The 1903 Springfield Rifles". Is is $59. Also get the Jesse Harrison book "The Collectable '03" for $35. The less than $100 investment will save you from getting stuck with a "rare, transitional, prototype, etc., etc." put-together or rework. Good collecting and shooting!
[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 17, 2000).]
The RA barrel marking is for Remington Arms. Rock Island (RIA barrel markings)ceased M1903 production in 1918 and all parts on hand were tranferred to Springfirld Armory or other rework facilities. The RIA receivers, both marked and unmarked went to Springfield. When Springfield could not meet expected demand for Garands, and the War Dept. felt it needed additional rifles, the RIA tooling was shipped to Remington Arms. Very early M1903 Remingtons are identical to late RIA M1903s.
To speed production, Remington suggested modifications to the M1903. These were approved and became the M1903 (modified) to collectors. These have the round rear sight bases without the lightening cuts. In a further mover to simplify production Remington again proposed to modify the M1903 with many stamped parts and 2 groove barrels. Testing by the military showed they were servicable and the design was adopted as the M1903A3. Smith-Corona (SC barrels) also manufactured the M1903A3. The A3 actually has a better battle sight. Some early SC rifles had 6 groove barrels. Some Remington replacement barrels were 4 groove.
Marine/Unertl sniper rifles are very rare advanced collector items and if encountered, should be documented given the well over $3000 plus price tag. I have only ever seen 2. Only one was documented. The Marine rifles were based upon M1903 National Match rifles with star guaged barrels. These rifles have been counterfeited as have most US sniper rifles. These are just harder to counterfeit due to the rarity of the parts needed.
Before you invest the money in any M1903, especially the more specialized variants like the sniper rifles, National Match versions, NRA/DCM sales rifles, Springfield Sporters, or the .22 variants, buy the Col. William Brophy book "The 1903 Springfield Rifles". Is is $59. Also get the Jesse Harrison book "The Collectable '03" for $35. The less than $100 investment will save you from getting stuck with a "rare, transitional, prototype, etc., etc." put-together or rework. Good collecting and shooting!
[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 17, 2000).]
Thank you gentlemen for the information, I learned a great deal. With your analysis, I think I have a sporter. The markings runs parallel with the receiver and is facing to the right or bolt side of the gun, opposite the gas port. My stock is a straight stock; no pistol grip. Also, I think the barrel was cut at the end of the front sight; it looks too short, there is not enough room for a front sight. The bolt handle is chromed. I would say the gun is about 90-95%. Whom ever did the work sportorizing it, did a great job. I like it. I spent less than $300 for it and my intentions were to make it a shooter. I have friends whom has sniper rifles and this piece looks like a nice replica of the famous WWII Sniper rifles. My last question is: " is there anything I need to check before I take it to the range?" The bore is nice and clean. The action is lubricated and the gas port is clear. I think the gun is at least 50 years old, should I be concern as to any dangers?
OK, you twisted our arms and we'll let you into our inner circle: headspace it. If you don't have a headspacing gauge, take it to a gunsmith. Should cost you no more than $20.
BTW, I bought a sporterized Springfield myself and while I can't prove it, suspect that it was sporterized at Springfield Armory itself (the DCM papers shows the buyer residing at Bldg 4 at the Armory and he picked it up himself). Mine is really well made but what makes it special is that besides the detachable Lyman 48 rear sight, it also has a Griffin & Howe base for the M1C scope mount unit and a M81 sight. Today, the cost of the scope base and M81 would be almost what I paid for the entire package. Enjoy your rifle as I do mine.
BTW, I bought a sporterized Springfield myself and while I can't prove it, suspect that it was sporterized at Springfield Armory itself (the DCM papers shows the buyer residing at Bldg 4 at the Armory and he picked it up himself). Mine is really well made but what makes it special is that besides the detachable Lyman 48 rear sight, it also has a Griffin & Howe base for the M1C scope mount unit and a M81 sight. Today, the cost of the scope base and M81 would be almost what I paid for the entire package. Enjoy your rifle as I do mine.
700PSS Shooter
New member
I have seen documented DCM released M1903A4s with a straight stock. Is the bolt handle chromed or polished? Does it have any markings on the root of the bolt handle (like N.S.) where it joins the bolt body? Is the body numbered? Does either the extractor or cocking piece have a "CV" marking. If so, it may have a National Match bolt or parts from a NM bolt. This was a common thing to do in the days when those parts were available.
4V50Gary:
Your sporter sounds like a nice piece. I saw a Springfield Sporter in almost identical configuation in Pennsylvania. It too had DCM paperwork, G&H scope mountings (I believe the rings were different, but maybe not), was the genuine article with a letter from the Springfield Research Service, and had been made for a field grade officer in the mid-1930's. Valued at $2400. It had a pre-war German scope on it. I can't remember the brand.
The Springfield Sporters were available to NRA members and all had Springfield NM actions. They were initially made to fulfill civilian (many ex-WW1 vets) demand for a high quality bolt action hunting rifle. I believe they cost $41 with a Lyman 48 receiver sight and were of exceptional quality. That was A LOT of money then. I think a Model 1894 Winchested was around $16. When the Winchester Model 70 came out in 1936 it spelled the end, since the Armory was never to be in direct competition with commercial civilian gun makers. I will eventually have one.
However, it will be after the NRA sales non-military M1922M1 .22 with Springfield Armory installed scope blocks and a Unertl scope. 
[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 18, 2000).]
4V50Gary:
Your sporter sounds like a nice piece. I saw a Springfield Sporter in almost identical configuation in Pennsylvania. It too had DCM paperwork, G&H scope mountings (I believe the rings were different, but maybe not), was the genuine article with a letter from the Springfield Research Service, and had been made for a field grade officer in the mid-1930's. Valued at $2400. It had a pre-war German scope on it. I can't remember the brand.
The Springfield Sporters were available to NRA members and all had Springfield NM actions. They were initially made to fulfill civilian (many ex-WW1 vets) demand for a high quality bolt action hunting rifle. I believe they cost $41 with a Lyman 48 receiver sight and were of exceptional quality. That was A LOT of money then. I think a Model 1894 Winchested was around $16. When the Winchester Model 70 came out in 1936 it spelled the end, since the Armory was never to be in direct competition with commercial civilian gun makers. I will eventually have one.
However, it will be after the NRA sales non-military M1922M1 .22 with Springfield Armory installed scope blocks and a Unertl scope. [This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 700PSS Shooter (edited May 18, 2000).]
700PSS Shooter,
The bolt handle is chrome with an "8" at the base of it. I forgot to mention this is a Remington, but 4V50 Gary guessed it. The original owner said an extra bolt come with the gun, but he couldn't find it at the time; he'll give it to me later. I've known and trusted him a long time and we are old friends (I'm in my 30's and He's in his 70's) so his word is gold. Sorry didn't mean to drift... Thank you again gentlemen for the wealth of knowledge. I'm more into the modern guns and think now I have graduated into the next level. Again Thank you.
The bolt handle is chrome with an "8" at the base of it. I forgot to mention this is a Remington, but 4V50 Gary guessed it. The original owner said an extra bolt come with the gun, but he couldn't find it at the time; he'll give it to me later. I've known and trusted him a long time and we are old friends (I'm in my 30's and He's in his 70's) so his word is gold. Sorry didn't mean to drift... Thank you again gentlemen for the wealth of knowledge. I'm more into the modern guns and think now I have graduated into the next level. Again Thank you.
700PSS Shooter: Thanks for sharing the information. Mine is exactly like the Springfields sporterized by the Armory itself. However, there are two things wrong: First, per Brophy edge of the receiver was slightly rounded where the barrel mates with the receiver. Mine is straight. Second, the serial # falls out of range of that reported by Brophy.
The original owner knew what he was getting. He paid $16.50 ($15 for the rifle and $1.50 for mandatory P&P) for it back in 1949. I believe there was some collusion on the part of the Armory as the rifle was sold as "unservicable" thanks to its loose front sight. What a story - to have the Armory customize a rifle for you and then sell it to you at a bargain rate (normal price was $30 for Servicable and $50 for "new").
I actually met one person at my range who had an authentic Sporter. I was shooting my M2 and he his Sporter. Naturally, we were drawn into admiring each other's rifle, with his being the big brother to my M-2. We agreed to shoot each other's rifle and were both very happy with the performance of the other's. Unfortunately for me, he ultimately gave it to a friend rather than sell it.
While the seller of my rifle assured me that her father never shot it and that it had been sold "as is" to him by DCM/Springfield Armroy, this cannot be proven via documentation. Nonetheless, I am very pleased with this rifle.
The original owner knew what he was getting. He paid $16.50 ($15 for the rifle and $1.50 for mandatory P&P) for it back in 1949. I believe there was some collusion on the part of the Armory as the rifle was sold as "unservicable" thanks to its loose front sight. What a story - to have the Armory customize a rifle for you and then sell it to you at a bargain rate (normal price was $30 for Servicable and $50 for "new").
I actually met one person at my range who had an authentic Sporter. I was shooting my M2 and he his Sporter. Naturally, we were drawn into admiring each other's rifle, with his being the big brother to my M-2. We agreed to shoot each other's rifle and were both very happy with the performance of the other's. Unfortunately for me, he ultimately gave it to a friend rather than sell it.
While the seller of my rifle assured me that her father never shot it and that it had been sold "as is" to him by DCM/Springfield Armroy, this cannot be proven via documentation. Nonetheless, I am very pleased with this rifle.
Keith Rogan
New member
Gary,
You seem to have this sniper scope thing down cold!
I have an old Weaver 440 scope with a post front site that I got from someone who originally purchased it at a government auction. There are no ordnance markings but I'm told thats not unusual.
I've been told that the 440 was used as a sniper scope but nobody has been able to tell me when, where or by who. Others have disagreed and told me it was NOT issued to snipers.
Surely the government owned a lot of scopes that weren't used by snipers...
Can you tell me if the 440 was sniper issue and provide any details you have? If it is a "sniper", what is its approximate value? The optics are still good, but the bluing is pretty worn.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
You seem to have this sniper scope thing down cold!
I have an old Weaver 440 scope with a post front site that I got from someone who originally purchased it at a government auction. There are no ordnance markings but I'm told thats not unusual.
I've been told that the 440 was used as a sniper scope but nobody has been able to tell me when, where or by who. Others have disagreed and told me it was NOT issued to snipers.
Surely the government owned a lot of scopes that weren't used by snipers...
Can you tell me if the 440 was sniper issue and provide any details you have? If it is a "sniper", what is its approximate value? The optics are still good, but the bluing is pretty worn.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
700PSS Shooter
New member
Gary! Another M1922 series fan. My latest of 3 is a very early M2 with non-adjustable bolt and 3 digit serial number. It has the M1 "B" style military stock and is cartouched with San Antonio Arsenal check and test. While this was not the traditional M2 stock, the owner had bought it from the NRA in the 40's and had the paperwork. The barrel is original and not a rebuild. It is about 99%. I love these pieces of artistry in steel and walnut. At a gun show, these are my first priority. Fortunately I bought all of mine from a gentleman in his 80's who bought them al from the NRA or DCM. A month ago he offered me an M2 with rebarrel in the original cosmoline and packaging with hangtags. etc. for $1000. A rare opportunity, but I preferred the above one which was in better shape.
Yikes! Devotees of the 1903 are springing up everywhere!
700PSS Shooter - Glad to hear from another enthusiastic of the wood n' steel club. For balance, handling characteristics, lines few guns rival the Gubmint sporterized '03. On that rebarreled job, I wouldn't have passed on it and would have used it as a shooter - if I had the money of course.
Bongos - you started this mess with your question. A good website is http://www.gunandknife.com/ for the '03/03A3, M1 Garand, M14 and for sniper weapons. Even Bruce Canfield drops into the M1 Garand section every now and then.
Keith - sorry about my abruptness but I will look into my other books to see what I can learn about the Weaver 440. The model # doesn't set any bells off but it could be Alzheimer or if there are bells, tindenitus.
700PSS Shooter - Glad to hear from another enthusiastic of the wood n' steel club. For balance, handling characteristics, lines few guns rival the Gubmint sporterized '03. On that rebarreled job, I wouldn't have passed on it and would have used it as a shooter - if I had the money of course.
Bongos - you started this mess with your question. A good website is http://www.gunandknife.com/ for the '03/03A3, M1 Garand, M14 and for sniper weapons. Even Bruce Canfield drops into the M1 Garand section every now and then.
Keith - sorry about my abruptness but I will look into my other books to see what I can learn about the Weaver 440. The model # doesn't set any bells off but it could be Alzheimer or if there are bells, tindenitus.
Keith Rogan
New member
Gary,
Any info will be appreciated. I think it probably was a sniper because I once talked to a gun dealer who had picked up several dozen Weavers back in the 60's in a government auction. They were mostly 330's but there were also some 440's mixed in.
I've often wondered if this 440 isn't merely the 330 with a post instead of a cross hair - same scope, different designation?
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Any info will be appreciated. I think it probably was a sniper because I once talked to a gun dealer who had picked up several dozen Weavers back in the 60's in a government auction. They were mostly 330's but there were also some 440's mixed in.
I've often wondered if this 440 isn't merely the 330 with a post instead of a cross hair - same scope, different designation?
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
700PSS Shooter
New member
Gary: He still has another M1922M2 in a box and also a very, very late black parkerized Remington Model of 1917. Still in the DCM box and cosmoline. Looks brand new. If he offers again, one or the other will not get by a second time. Out of respect, I prefer to let him offer.
Keith,
I've looked into in and found nothing to support that the Weaver 440 was used by the military. Our fellow member, Jim Keenan was consulted and also drew a blank. Jim gave me the sickening revelation that after the Kennedy assassination, many 330s were broken up with the lens given to high schools.
About the only thing I found on the Weaver 440 is that it is a contemporary of the 330 with the difference being 4X to the 330's 2 3/4 X (respective field of view being 27 feet to the latter's 35 feet at 100 yards). In 1938, the 330 cost $27.50 (with Weaver mounts) and the higher power 440 at $32.50.
Two types of adjustments were available. The first is a standard 1/4 minute click for target application and for hunting, the adjustment was done with screws which were secured with lock nuts. Both crosshair and tapered post were available. It is my belief that the hunting model 330 was adopted for as the M73B1.
Gary
I've looked into in and found nothing to support that the Weaver 440 was used by the military. Our fellow member, Jim Keenan was consulted and also drew a blank. Jim gave me the sickening revelation that after the Kennedy assassination, many 330s were broken up with the lens given to high schools.
About the only thing I found on the Weaver 440 is that it is a contemporary of the 330 with the difference being 4X to the 330's 2 3/4 X (respective field of view being 27 feet to the latter's 35 feet at 100 yards). In 1938, the 330 cost $27.50 (with Weaver mounts) and the higher power 440 at $32.50.
Two types of adjustments were available. The first is a standard 1/4 minute click for target application and for hunting, the adjustment was done with screws which were secured with lock nuts. Both crosshair and tapered post were available. It is my belief that the hunting model 330 was adopted for as the M73B1.
Gary