1878 Ballard Rifle

S

stubbicatt

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In Denver this weekend was the best gun show I ever saw. It was a collector's gun show, every table, every exhibit was exquisite. Firearms and weapons from even the 1500s, maybe earlier. Many from the 1800's in the US. There was this one tiny little cap and ball revolver, I forget the chambering, with a box and a complete kit, that looked brand new, offered at a mere $290,000.

An exhibitor had several Ballard rifles, the one that caught my eye was a #6 manufactured perhaps 1878 or 79, with a replacement Winchester barrel, chambered for 32-40. The exhibitor said that when barrels were replaced back in the day on Ballards, most often they were Winchester barrels. Ever since I watched my first, and only Scheutzen match, I have wanted a Ballard in that chambering.

I wanted that rifle so badly I could taste it. But for the weight and the mere $5000 that it was offered at, I would have taken it right then. ;)

The bore was bright and shiny, but it seemed to me the rifling was sort of rounded over. There were no signs of pitting at all. But for the length of the barrel, as well as I could see, the rifling was not "square" but sort of rounded over.

Is it supposed to be?
 
I don't think so. But I was just reading a thread on black powder barrel erosion and 50000 shots might well round it over a bit.
 
There has been rifling that looks "rounded over" (e.g., Metford), but I don't recall any like that used by Winchester. I really have to wonder about a rifle of that era having a barrel in such good condition. Is it possible that the barrel was lined?

Jim
 
Harry Pope did a LOT of work with Ballard/Scheutzen rifles...

And he used rifling with rounded over lands.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/08/history-pope-rifle-barrels.html

"My rifling is here shown. (See Fig. 93.) It has eight wide grooves, which are on a radius about three times the radius of the bore, and has the corners rounded out, so dirt is easier removed, and it is cleaner in use."


My guess? You saw a Ballard rifle with a Pope-fitted Winchester barrel.

Not surprising it had a $5G pricetag on it.
 
Mike Irwin: Went to the link you provided, and indeed that rifling diagram closely resembled what I saw down the barrel. Sorta wish now I had bought that thing.

I should have gotten that guy's contact information. Now to try to track him down and see if I can find that rifle, if it hasn't already sold. Wonder if it was a gain twist? I didn't see any holes in the muzzle which would have suggested fitment of a false muzzle.

I find these old rifles fascinating.
 
You have be careful of the old Ballard actions, especially the cast ones. In the past there were cast actions rebarreled with totally inappropriate chamberings. A couple years ago there was an incident at "The Quigley" match where a woman had a cast action explode. Luckily there where a couple physicians present.

Along with an interest in the old rifles, take the time to find out about them and how to distinguish a cast action and appropriate chamberings.

Here is a link over to the ASSRA site for one of the discussions regarding the Ballard that exploded and other ones that have done the same

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1340046856

There was a company making high quality repro Ballards. The website is still there, but I have NO IDEA if they are still building rifles. There was rumors a few years ago about the state of the business (within the single shot circles).

HOWEVER, the pictures are well worth looking at.

http://www.ballardarms.com/index.shtml

dc
 
Good information there Dr. Cook.

Perhaps I'll just skip the Ballards altogether, as I have no knowledge of how to adjudge a cast frame. Perhaps I'll just stick to a High Wall or build a rifle on such an action.

The frame on the one I saw was engraved, but if I had to hazard a guess, that engraving could very well have been molded in as part of a casting process.

Too bad the Ballard Rifle Company in Cody isn't doing these rifles anymore. I have read elsewhere that some guy in Michigan bought that part of the Cody business and isn't manufacturing any such rifles.

I did visit Cody in 2009 I think it was, or maybe it was in the early 2000's, and did get a brief tour of their facility. It was very nice. They had CNC machines, and wood, and stocks and barrels and all sorts of things. I guess I missed the bus on this one.
 
A Ballard has always been on my bucket list.

The cast frame Ballards are fine, as long as you don't do anything stupid like chambering them for a modern high-pressure cartridge.

Not all of them had the false-muzzle starters. Not everyone agreed that that was the best way of loading the gun. Many were set up so that the bullet could be seated in the lands from the rear with a bullet starter and a charged case loaded behind it.
 
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OK... I just learned something important...

I thought the cast frame Ballards were OK, with black powder-loaded cartridges up to .45-70...

Apparently NOT the case.
 
The other issue with those old guns is that they have gone through X number of firing cycles and may or may not have the best metallurgy, etc. A cast action, that if it had been cast under today's procedures could POSSIBLY be safe, might hold together for another 100 yrs or might go on the next firing.

I quite understand the lure of the old guns. That is why I have Shilohs and CPA 44 1/2's. Long range black powder shooting is fun.

If you really want a cool rifle, that will be safe, hold its value and be fun to shoot, accumulate the scratch to get one of the 1877 Sharps that Shiloh has recently come out with. As with the 1874's, there is a waiting list, but, it is well worth it. I waited 16/17 months for the 45-90 I have and the same amount of time to have the custom 45-110 barrel put on one of my guns.
 
That Ballard shop in Cody had some very fine rifles when we dropped by several years ago.
Sorry to hear they're no longer in the rifle biz.

Cast frames, incidentally, are not inherently dangerous if done right.

Shiloh uses in-house-cast frames on their Sharps.
Denis
 
In this case we are not discussing "cast frames" as you are envisioning.

We are discussing 100+ year old, cast iron Ballard frames.

We all know Shiloh, CPA and Ruger, to name 3, utilize modern cast frames using appropriate metallurgy that can stand up to high intensity cartridges. My friends and I that shoot 110's are running 107/108 grains of BP under 540gr bullets and Shiloh states that there actions will stand up to any factory loaded 45-70 round, smokeless or BP. Ruger chambers theirs in African calibers. I would assume that Shilohs can handle more than they state, but what the old designs lack is effective gas control from a rupture.

The difference is that fact that they are casting theirs from a grade of steel appropriate to a firearm receiver, not cast iron.

Here is another link over to the Marlin's forum that discusses identifying the old Ballard actions. Quite interesting to read, and informative. In the discussions is how to ID a cast iron frame Ballard.

http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7468
 
Understood.
My post was not directed at you, but to people who may not know any better, who may see "cast frame" in a questionable light in this thread, and who may perpetually equate "cast" with "bad" forevermore. :)
Denis
 
Yep :)

And my purpose is for folks to know about the cast Ballard actions and not take a chance on their hands, eyes etc.

Somewhere down the line, I hope discussions such as these will save someone from having to experience a receiver blowup and all the subsequent potential consequences.

Shiloh used to have video on their website that showed the actions being cast and other of their manufacturing processes. I don't know if it is still there or not.

Update:

There is a picture there of one of the foundry workers and a small blurb about their processes and the fact that they use 4140 steel for their castings

http://www.shilohrifle.com/why.php
 
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